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作者 amaranth 在 PTT [ historia ] 看板的留言(推文), 共912則
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11F→: 比喻不對,楚商周淵源有紀錄,跟你列的不同07/03 16:59
12F→: 楚原本是周的下屬諸侯國並非外敵,只是他最早對周翻桌07/03 17:00
13F→: 朝代末年都會有分封勢力開始脫離中央,他只是其中之一07/03 17:59
59F→: 話說原PO一開始就搞錯楚國源頭,其實整篇文都沒意義07/03 23:09
62F推: 所謂好幾次根本是跳針東拉西扯，懶得回而已07/04 01:15
63F推: 楚國一開始是下屬，後來翻臉自立為王，從那時候起不在是07/04 01:17
64F→: 周的諸侯國，但並不影響楚的起源跟出身07/04 01:17
65F推: 講無侵中國的時候楚已經自立為王幾十年了，確實不是周07/04 01:28
66F推: 下屬，到戰國中原諸國也是紛紛稱王，周天子一樣管都不07/04 01:36
11F→: 贏姓秦氏(族群)趙氏(出生地,無關族群)07/03 19:49
12F→: 繼位前稱呼為公子政,繼位後稱秦王政,統一後是始皇帝07/03 19:50
13F推: 非子受封前他們是贏姓趙氏一支,受封後是獨立的贏姓秦氏07/03 19:53
21F→: 趙政書的政治立場鮮明,作為史料有所爭議07/03 23:02
1F推: 楚/秦國不太一樣喔,他們是中央把外姓/非重臣部族封到邊07/02 09:02
2F→: 疆去開墾,只是他們成功打出去發展起來07/02 09:03
3F→: 楚族是從中原遷徙/被逼走到西方投靠周族,周滅商後沒有被07/02 09:05
4F→: 帶回中原享福,而是封到更南去鎮守07/02 09:06
5F→: 抱歉看錯內文了,應該是類似沒錯07/02 09:07
5F→: 他們是在中原外圍發展的政權,文明也自成一格06/30 11:00
6F→: 被尊爵不凡:P的中原文化圈排擠好像也是很正常的06/30 11:02
7F→: 不過論源頭都是商末~西周前期從中原遷徙過去06/30 11:08
170F推: 周天子認為楚是周的諸侯國啊,所以才要出兵教訓,只是打輸07/01 02:35
171F→: 楚國一開始還有進貢義務跟在祭祀擔任職務(不過是低階)07/01 02:36
172F推: 不是聽聽而已,當時楚國非常弱小,領地才五十里07/01 02:40
173F→: 翻臉不認周老大是他併吞鄰居變強開始膨脹以後了07/01 02:43
174F推: 周力量下滑楚就出來唱秋,周回升楚又縮回去,反覆好幾次XD07/01 02:46
178F推: 那是楚成王時的事,他爺爺的時候就跟周翻臉自立為武王了07/01 16:13
179F→: 楚成王內戰幹掉老哥上位,一開始保持低調跟眾國交好07/01 16:19
180F→: 派人送禮物給周天子,周天子也趁機拜託?對方不要來中原07/01 16:22
181F推: BC704年,熊通耍流氓向周討爵位,不成後翻臉自立為武王07/01 16:27
182F推: 楚成王熊惲送禮給周天子是三十幾年後的事了07/01 16:31
185F→: 要是來就是帶兵來爭霸啦~還是請他別來吧:P07/01 20:06
186F→: "曾經是"諸侯國啊,不過在三十幾年就翻臉不認了07/01 20:07
187F→: 各國心裡都不把周王當共主,只是楚國最猛第一個翻桌07/01 20:22
226F→: 楚是周下屬的諸侯國無庸置疑,只是他早早就當出頭鳥想翻07/01 02:49
227F→: 身作地主,其實跟袁術幹得有點像07/01 02:50
24F推: 楚族在商亡之前,周文王時就抱大腿了,不過明顯沒啥大功06/29 20:39
25F→: 到成王擴大封國時才撈到一個五十里子爵,還是邊緣封地06/29 20:48
13F→: 拿現代多重定義中的一種去硬套古代,當然一團混亂06/29 04:16
38F推: 楚國是從東方往西遷徙的民族,一開始依附商朝通婚,後來06/28 22:48
39F→: 改跟文王武王,站對邊事後被封了個小國子爵06/28 22:49
42F推: 清華簡楚居用季連當始祖,從河南新鄭附近往西北遷徙,向商06/28 22:55
47F→: 王求通婚,族人繼續沿河西遷,到鬻熊時投靠周文王06/28 23:01
57F推: 楚國自己紀錄是說他們祖先是商朝地盤內的部族06/28 23:11
4F推: 楚國領土是從五十里地一路併吞周圍小國，用拳頭打出來06/28 19:47
87F推: 楚國祖先是中原出身，只是爭地盤失敗往南遷徙06/28 17:13
88F推: 後來周朝起家時期站對邊，翻身成為有牌諸侯06/28 17:15
89F→: 不過長期在外圍發展，自然獨立性強，文化也有所差異06/28 17:16