[情報] 史上最長 Storm 9.0 Q&A!
看板Wargaming作者hsinhanchu (hsinhanchu)時間10年前 (2014/03/02 11:53)推噓87(87推 0噓 102→)留言189則, 55人參與討論串1/8 (看更多)
先放個3/1的,準備拿一千P幣..
=
- Sheridan doesn’t fit World of Tanks, because it could fire the Shillelagh
missile and “without missiles, this tank would be illogical”
薛里丹不適合放進WOT,因為沒有棍杖式飛彈的薛里丹整個不知道在幹嘛...
- new “split” Panzer IV’s and StuG (tier 3,4,5) will be available for all
modes, not just historical battles
四號&三突的早中晚期型在所有模式(不會限定歷史)中都可以出場。
- effects of ammo rack “cook-off” (SS: burning through the hatches from
inside) are planned
彈藥架燃燒的火焰從各艙蓋冒出來的效果計畫中。
- problems with LT class now? “Don’t play light tanks”
輕坦目前的定位尷尬?
「不爽不要玩」。
(戰鬥輕坦如T71、六四式表示毫無壓力,隊友不打我就自己來。)
- it’s not yet sure whether in historical battles, it will be sufficient to
have historical modules unlocked, or you will have to buy them as well, both
options were discussed
還不確定在史實戰役中模組「只要解鎖就好」還是要另外花錢買,討論中。
- dynamic characteristics of tanks in garage will not come soon
車庫中的動態性能顯示快好了
- for now there is no info on “super-Tortoise” with turret from Bovington
archives (SS: in relation to the British turretted TD branch)
Borvington資料庫裡面沒有超級土龜計畫。(SS:英國砲塔TD線相關)
- apparently, the “new method” of evaluating tank performance was judged
correctly and it’s possible some buffs and nerfs will come in the future,
but not in 9.0
WG認定計算戰車表現的新方法是正確的,近期可能會霸浮納浮水上樂園一下,不過不是9.0
- Storm confirms that historical battles will come in the form of portal
events, single battles will be available for limited time only. This system
was accepted in order to increase the “population” (amount of players
playing) of individual historical battles (SS: in order not to have queues).
If there were 30 different historical battles active at the same time, the
player pool would be too spread, which would mean queues and MM issues
Storm確認史實戰役會以類似活動方式舉辦,單場戰役只會在限定時段開放。
這是為了要增加遊玩史實戰役的玩家數(SS:免排隊)。如果同時有30個不同的史實戰役劇本
開放,玩家會分散到不同的地方去,也就要等排隊+會有MM問題。
- Storm states that i3 4330 processor + GTX760 should be enough for WoT HD
and Havok, but no exact minimum requirements are known yet
i3 4330+ GTX760大概可以跑WOTHD+Havok,但是確實的規格未定。
- the removal of the display of XP required for a tank/module (once that
module was unlocked) is a bug, it will be fixed in 9.0
9.0之後就可以看到研發後模組/戰車所花掉的經驗值(目前看不到)
- there will NOT be a +/-1 MM
不會有+-1MM
(誰問的,直接鎖遊戲帳號一個月好嗎?)
- T18 will be nerfed “it’s done when it’s done”
T18 nerf WIDID
- tanks tipping over on their roof will come in 9.1 or 9.2
9.1或9.2會有翻車效果
- the issues with chat (not seeing friends online on other servers for
example) will be fixed with Chat 2.0 introduction
談話系統問題(例如在別的伺服器看不到朋友上線)會在談話系統2.0版修正
- it’s possible arty will appear in historical battles (maybe)
SPG有可能放進史實模式(吧)
- Centurion color will not change to olive drab, it will remain yellow as it
is
百夫長塗裝不會轉為橄欖綠,會維持黃色。
- Storm confirms upcoming tier 8 German premium medium tank
Storm確認接下來會有德國T8PreMMT
(SS的幾個猜測,M47、Leo PTB、Panther II Ausf.F或是渦輪引擎豹式。)
- no exact ETA for Chat 2.0 (new chat system), developers are working on it
so that it can handle million players simultaneously
Chat 2.0沒有表定完成時間,開發組工作中。
- SerB confirms that turret weight (SS: or any module weight really) is just
an arbitrary number (SS: what really maters is the total weight of the
vehicle)
SerB確認砲塔重量是寫爽的。(和module tier一樣)
SS:反正全車重量一樣就好。
- WoT Xbox: Soviet tanks will appear later apparently, because the main
market for Xbox Live is Europe and the USA
X盒版的蘇聯車會晚點上,因為主客群在歐美。
=
挑戰開始........
先節錄一下SS的前言,他看到這串巨型Q&A串時的想法是「幹,我不幹了,去釣魚」
,雖然SS從來不釣魚...
接著當他看到某個玩家的問題集時,他差點用頭去撞牆....
(「耶,快要翻完了,喔幹......」)
- common test will come in a frame of several weeks
公測會以數周的方式進行。
(類似以前的模式吧,PT1>PT2>PT3這樣)
- test server capacity will not be upgraded for 9.0 test
PTSV的容量在9.0不會增加
- roaming will come in in Summer or Fall
夏/秋季會開放漫遊
- developers have decided that there will only be one client (so HD/regular
separate clients), although it is possible HD content will be downloadable
separately. How exactly will this work is not yet decided. In 9.0, this
option will not be implemented yet, as 12 tanks won’t be that huge to
download and to develop this option just for them would be pointless
TLDR:不會有完整的HD程式,只有HD包,細節未定,9.0還不會全HD,只有12台戰車。
- for now, the required PC parameters to run the HD stuff are not yet known,
final tests haven’t been made yet
硬體需求未定。
- Storm on FPS in 9.0: “Unfortunately, nothing comes without a price”
Storm評論9.0的FPS(反正一定會掉)
「萬物都有其代價」
- IS-4 HD model was not introduced in 9.0, because it was a “testing” model
and not a “finished” one
IS-4的HD是測試版,不會在9.0實裝。
- Havok will not come in 9.0, but it will come this year
havok今年,但不是9.0
- turrets flying off can be implemented even without Havok, because it’s
made by serverside physics
砲塔炸飛可以不依賴havok,因為是伺服器物理運算。
- the patch will have like 2-3 gigabytes, but that’s only a rough estimate
patch 粗估約2-3G
- multicore support will not come soon, not in 9.1 or 9.2 at least
多核心最快要在9.1~9.2之後
- the graphics settings will not be simplified into “good-bad”, current
complexity will be kept
畫質設定不會簡化到低中高畫質,現行的選項會保持
- Malinovka’s problem is that the imbalance between winrates of respective
sides is higher than 10 percent
Campingnoobka有一方的勝率高了10%
(無責任猜測北方比較高)
- Serene Coast has the same problem (side balance), Storm explains that when
they reworked it, they focused on removing the massive campfest this map was
known for and kinda screwed up the side balance
Serene Coast有同樣的問題,Storm解釋當重做這張地圖時,他們把造成不平衡的蹲坑點
拔掉。
- there are already plans for a new batch of HD models, too early to tell
though (Storm states that HD IS-3 will come in the future)
有下一波HD戰車名單,不過要公布還太早
Storm:IS3會有HD版本
- apparently, the Malinovka changes consist of moving the church into the
village
Malinovka的改動包含把教堂放進村莊。
- new vehicles in 9.0: Panzer IV getting split to 3 vehicles (tier 3-5), StuG
to 2 vehicles (tier 4-5), supertesters will get some stuff for testing (Storm
later states that tier 5 StuG will remain unchanged)
9.0四號會分成T3~T5的三台,StuG會到T4~5,ST會拿到一些測式用的東西
Storm之後表示T5的StuG不會變動。
- Panzer IV and StuG owners will get NO FREE STUFF
NO FREE TANK FOR YOU, EVIL CAPITALISTS!
- drawing range will not be reworked into circle in 9.0, the drawing range
from 724 to 565 meters will not be reduced
9.0不會動繪圖距離。
- the option to retrain one crewmember occupation to another (radioman to
driver for example) is being worked on, it’s possible it will appear in 2014
2014準備開放轉職。
(一組兩技能車組可以轉成五組車長有第六感的車組,hellya!)
- tank viewrange will not be increased to 700 meters, more like something
like a circle witha 565 meters radius (Storm made a typo of 525 meters, later
he corrected himself)
戰車視野不會拉到700m,而比較像是565m圓形。
- these 565 meters are based upon the fact that the surface of a square of
1000 x 1000 meters is the same as that of the circle with 565 meter radius
這樣改是因為半徑565m圓形的面積和邊長1km正方形的面積約相同。
- ETA of viewrange change is not known, Storm states many tests are needed
視野修正時間未定,Storm表示要測
- in connection with the viewrange change, no plans to rebalance the
viewranges of tanks in game for now
暫時不打算改戰車視距。
- ingame lags are “purely network-related issues, not depending on the
engine/server/client”
會lag都是網路公司的錯
(說到這個,telia.net這間公司的確是NA會掉封包的元兇)
- the developers haven’t scrapped the concept of maps bigger than 1×1 km
大型地圖未廢案
- developers are considering some changes in the spotting system logic (SS: a
player in the question mentioned gradual disappearance of tanks and such)
開發組考慮修正偵察系統的邏輯(SS:例如逐漸消失之類的)
- apparently, the shader optimization from World of Warplanes will not appear
in 9.0
從WOWP來的上色器優化還不會放9.0
- Storm states that all the lags and freezes in WoT, caused by WG side, were
already fixed
Storm表示WG搞出來的lag、定格包已經全部修正完畢
- the idea of reducing the damage of HEAT shells has little internal support
in Wargaming apparently, will definitely not appear in 9.0
WG內部很少人支持減低HEAT傷害的提案,也不會放進9.0
- the question of gold ammo rebalance (by other means than by changing its
price) is kinda “stuck”, no solution yet
特種彈藥的再平衡(除了漲價之外的手段)有點卡住了。
- Storm states that patch 9.0 doesn’t mean players with very weak computers
will be unable to play completely
Storm:9.0不會讓電腦爛的玩家玩不下去
- KTTS/ASAP magazine will also be made along with the new Developer Diaries
KTTS/ASAP會放到開發組日記
- Storm earlier states that the historical battles will run as “portal events
”, but he stated he’s not yet sure how long will these events run
總之還不確定歷史戰役會怎麼打。
- “fortifications” (clan bases) will not come in 9.0 (it was never planned
for 9.0 anyway), they will come a bit later (this year though)
「要塞(CW)」不會在9.0,今年稍晚
- it is possible that in 9.0, Confrontation (national battles) will be
removed – it has many issues and the historical battles should cover the
segment
9.0可能砍掉國戰,因為問題太多+和歷史戰役重疊
- Storm states that the national battles were implemented as an experiment
Storm表示國戰純屬實驗性質
- Wargaming states that regarding the rework of all models to HD, it’s very,
very difficult to find enough subcontractors for that, because even
experienced graphic contractors/offices send them models with 20-30cm
discrepancies. The goal is to have most of the tanks converted to HD this
year.
WG表示做HD超麻煩,老手做出來的模組還是有誤差,今年的目標是盡量提升HD模組數量
- tanks stuck on slopes might be fixed when new motion physics system is
introduced (this system will be introduced in 9.1 or 9.2)
新物理系統引入後戰車卡在斜坡上的問題可能修正(9.1 / 9.2)
- regarding the Panzer IV split: Soviet tanks (SS: apart from KV-1S) will not
be split like that, there is no need for Soviet splits
蘇聯戰車除了KV-1S之外不會拆車,沒必要。
- there will be no platoons allowed in Historical Battles’ first iteration
歷史模式第一輪不開放組排
- it will not be possible to see two same tanks with different guns in one
historical battle (SS: for example a L/42 and L/60 Panzer III in one battle)
歷史模式中可能有裝不同主砲的同一種戰車
SS:例如三號的50/L42和L60
- there is apparently no tier limit for historical battles, the limit is “
real vehicles only”
史實戰役沒有車階限制,唯一的限制就是當時真正出戰的車。
- in 9.0, no user mod functions will be added (SS: as in, functions,
currently obtainable only by using mods)
9.0不會有mod的功能被納入遊戲內建
- two “mod functions” that are planned (related to question above) are the
texts (tank names) on minimap and more crew functions (easy moving the crew
between tanks)
兩個打算內建的遊戲功能是小地圖顯示車種(locastan's map)和組員換車管理
- No Scroll mod (mod preventing you from scrolling the mousewheel into sniper
mode) will apparently not be implemented (only a few people use it)
滾輪鎖死功能不會內建,很少人用
(沒什麼用的功能)
- improved tank filter in hangar will not be in 9.0, but it will be
implemented
車庫濾鏡會有,但不是9.0
- carousel (the way tank selection in hangar works) will be improved
eventually
車庫中各車間的切換畫面會改
- serverside replays: “when it’s done it’s done”
伺服器RP WIDID
- in historical battles, every tank will have its own specific MM weight for
each historical battle and based on these weights, MM will be put together
史實戰役每輛車會有特定的MM值,依此做分房。
- apparently, Object 430′s size is unhistorical, its armor is fine though,
it will be reworked, but not anytime soon
Obj.430裝甲正確尺寸錯誤,短期內不會重製
- there will be no changes to the Super Pershing
SP不會再改
(目前一切良好)
- it’s completely possible Havok will appear in 9.1 or 9.2
Havok 9.1/9.2
- developers worked in parallel on 8.11 and 9.0, that’s why the test comes
soon after 8.11
8.11/9.0是平行進行的,解釋了為什麼9.0PT更早上。
- Kharkov will not appear in 9.0, it will come later
卡爾可夫:9.0後
- apparently, Konigsberg map is not yet developed
柯尼斯堡地圖還沒開發
- dynamic tank characteristics in hangar: when it’s done it’s done (no
exact ETA)
動態性能WIDID
- alternative hulls: 9.2 or later
換車體:9.2以後
- new regular tanks will not come in 9.0 (or 9.1) (SS: earlier it was leaked
that 9.1 could bring US lights, I guess they changed that)
9.0/9.1沒有新車
- Grosstraktor will not be a regular vehicle
大型拖拉機不會是常規車
- regarding the artillery shells flying outside of the aim circle bug: “For
starters, I will fix the bug, where shell trajectory is displayed incorrectly
in replays. So that we have a base to confirm the issue.”
SPG砸出框:「得先修正RP中彈著點顯示錯誤的問題,才能討論彈著問題。」
- Chinese tanks models will not be reworked anytime soon
中國戰車不會在短期內重製
- there will also be graphic changes on non-HD models and maps, but Storm
says it’s better to see it than to describe it
非HD戰車/地圖會重製,不過用看的比較快。
- physically, serverside amount of “connecting points” for each suspension
is the same for all the tanks (5 per side), so all tanks’ suspensions will
behave the same way basically (adding more of these contact points – points
where the track movement is modelled – would stress the server too much
apparently)
物理上來說戰車履帶的接地點都是一側5個,讓所有戰車的履帶工作模式相同。
更多點會讓伺服器超載。
- camouflage mechanism will not be changed for now in general, only camo
coefficients (and not in 9.0)
隱蔽機制暫時不會整個重作,只會改隱蔽係數(非9.0)
- new tanks will appear in HD already (for example the Chaffee – T49 branch)
新戰車會直接以HD版出場
- hangar carousel, company and training room interface rework will not come
in 9.0
車庫/連隊/訓練介面不會在9.0重製
- ripping off armored screens (applique armor) by explosions and penetration
is modelled by Havok, it will not come in 9.0
外掛裝甲被打飛要用havok,非9.0
- there will be garage battles in WoT, only for top tiers though
會有車庫戰,TX限定。
- for now, only tank models are improved to HD, although ground texture
improvements are planned as well
戰車HD先行,地形有計畫。
- TD camo nerf will not come in 9.0, but it is planned
TD的隱蔽nerf不會在9.0,但是有這樣的計畫
- the historical battles that will come first are Kursk 1943, Balaton 1945,
Ardennes 1944-1945
最早的史實戰役:
庫斯克會戰、巴拉頓湖戰役和突出部之役
- no tanks will get nerfed or buffed in 9.0
9.0不會buff/nerf
- maps used for historical battles will be “the most suitable for each
respective historical battle”
用來打史實戰役的地圖會是「最適合的那張」
- impact decals will not be changed in 9.0, WG is not developing new ones at
the moment
彈痕不會改,目前沒有做新版。
- IS-3 will not come in the next batch of HD models apparently,
IS-3不會是下一波HD名單。
A set of questions from Maiorboltach
讓SS撞牆的Maiorboltach問題集
- there will be only ONE new regular branch in 2014, if you don’t count the
US light tanks (with them, it will be two)
今年只有一條新線,外加USLT線。
- T95E6 was made as a reward for clan events (Evilly adds: for Clanwars)
T95E6會是外交搓湯圓競賽獎品。
(真的是浪費錢,做了台戰車的模型,讓一群玩家為了它開始玩大外交,玩完大外交
三天後所有人又把那台車放到冷凍庫裡面再也不開它。)
- hightier premium Japanese medium will be one of the STA/STB prototypes
(Storm doesn’t remember exactly) – (SS: STA-1B, basically a Pershing with
90mm, kinda odd looking)
高階日本PremMT會是STA/STB的某種原型車(SS:STA-1B,潘興太郎之類的。)
- the development of EU tree has not even started yet
EU線還沒開工。
- apparently the announcement that 2014 will be a “year of tank rebalance”
was some kind of misunderstanding, there will not be apparently a massive
tank rebalance
103年是國軍訓練年...
不對,「2014年是平衡年」是錯誤印象,今年並不會四處動刀。
- historical battles will play as random battles, not as companies
史實會像是隨機而非連隊模式
- “escort” mode was completely scrapped
VIP模式廢案
(從一開始就是蠢主意)
- it’s possible the company mode will be eventually closed, but it’s not
sure yet
連隊模式可能取消,未定
- the way interface looks for various modes will be unified
模式間的介面會統一
- new engine/track sounds will not come in 9.0, 9.0 test will have new engine
sounds, but for feedback purposes only, new sounds will be released in 9.1 or
9.2
9.0會有新引擎聲,但是只是看玩家的反應,真正的音效改動會放9.1/9.2
- the questions whether SU-76i, SU-85i and Panzer IV Hydro will be used as
mission rewards can only be answered by Publisher department (SS: the way
Wargaming RU works is – the company is basically separated into developer
and publisher offices. Developers like Storm answer the requests from
publishers, such as “give us new German hightier medium”, find sources for
it, model it, develop it and test it, but it’s the publisher branch that is
responsible for its release, not Storm for example)
SU-76i、85i和四號液壓版會不會當作任務獎品不是開發部門決定的
- regarding the previous question, Evilly adds that it was decided to save
Panzer IV Hydro and SU-76i for various promotions, events and possibly
mission rewards, while SU-85i will be sold as a regular premium tank
Evilly表示目前暫定四號液壓型和76I會當作特殊用途獎品,85I會是金幣TD。
- Wargaming is not planning for now to introduce anti-inject system such as
Punkbuster
不打算加入PB之類的反作弊程式
- live gamemaster idea (like Zeus in Arma3) will not be implemented
實況主持人(?)不會引入
And back to regular answers
- the way models look will change for all tanks, not just HD models
模型外觀都會改
- new motion physics: 9.1 or 9.2
9.1/9.2會有新物理系統
- the sounds of turret turning and of switching transmission gears will come
in 9.1-9.2, reworked sound will most likely come for all tanks at once
轉砲塔、換檔會在9.1/9.2,所有戰車通用
- Maus will not be nerfed or buffed, IS-7 neither
鼠式表現良好,IS7繼續吃土。
- plans for new tanks introduction are only made for 2014, there will be no
massive tank rebalance in 2014
上面都提過
- Japanese heavies will not come 2014
JPNHT不會是今年(T5~8還是缺車)
- there will be some random element as well in the
ripped-off-by-ammo-explosion turret trajectory
會有些隨機要素,例如砲塔炸飛後朝哪掉出去
- turrets being ripped off will work for all the tanks in 9.0, independent
suspension only for the HD models
9.0所有砲塔都會炸飛,但是獨立懸吊只有HD版本
- FV4202 will be switched for another tank (SS: almost certainly Vickers MBT
Mk.I, although Storm states this issue is not completely decided yet)
4202會換成別的車(SS:大致上可以確認是維克斯MBT,不過Storm表示未定)
(我其實比較想要Mk.13/1....)
- multi-gun mechanism was postponed to year “who-the-fuck-knows” (SS: as
in, shelved)
多砲機制(像是ST-II)延後到「去你媽的我哪知道是哪一」年。
(SS:廢案。)
- for now it was decided not to remove Komarin map from the game
Komarin暫時不會被拔掉第二次。
- Storm confirms that Panzer IV and StuG split happened due to historical
battles, new StuG and PIV models will be the last models in the old quality
(not HD)
Storm表示四號/三突拆分是為了史實模式。新的模型會是舊版模型。
- Storm is aware of bugs with ingame scale (SS: some things are too big, some
too small), it will be fixed
Storm表示遊戲中尺寸有錯,會修。
- new premium tanks? “Will tell later”
新的Prem再說吧。
- “disappearing shells bug” (SS: probably connected to the artillery) was
not confirmed yet, Storm states that this bug is different from the one where
shells fly through tanks
消失的砲彈還未確認,Storm表示和砲彈穿過戰車應該是不同的bug
- traverse angle of Sturer Emil and SU-101 will apparently not be buffed
Emil/Uralmash主砲角度不會buff。
- new spotting system and new perks/skills (or the rebalance of old ones)
will both be developed in the future
新的偵測系統/組員技能都會開發
- premium T-54 will not come earlier than in 9.3
T-54金幣版至少要9.3
- 9.0 will contain no HD map object/landscape rework
9.0不會有HD地圖物體或是地景。
- light tank rebalance? “Not in 9.0, I won’t tell anything for now” and “
wait for new LT8〃, change (buff) will come in 2014 though
LT重新平衡?
「目前不評論,反正不是9.0」、「等新的T8LT,總之今年會改」
- US premium TD will come in 2014
今年有一台USPremTD
- the principle of miniturret penetration will not be changed (SS: earlier,
it was proposed that for example hits on small parts of the vehicles, like
commander’s copula or rangefinder, would cause less damage, apparently it
was rejected)
打穿小砲塔、車長塔這些地方會減傷的提案廢棄。
- there will be multicore support, Havok will use that
會有多核心支援,Havok需要這個運算。
- Crossfire support will be implemented
會支援Crossfire
- AMD Mantle support is not planned
不過沒打算支援AMD Mantle
- Q: “Did War Thunder influence the fact there are more developer news now?”
A: “And is there something going on over there, that should influence it?”
「最近比較多開發消息是受到隔壁棚影響嗎?」
「還受到天氣、早餐、地球自轉、普丁出兵克里米亞和烏干達反同性戀之類的事件影響」
- Storm states that statistics show that tier 8 do not end up in battles with
tier 10′s more often than before 8.11
Storm表示統計上來說,T8進TX的機率在8.11並未提高
- the possibility to remove some of the maps by a player will not be
implemented at all, because it creates problems with MM
不開放玩家勾除地圖功能,會有MM問題
- the fact you will have 3 Panzer IV’s and 2 StuG’s in 9.0 means you will
also have 5 different crews
PzIV和StuG拆車表示組員專長也會有五種。
- new hangars will come in 9.0 (both regular and premium)
新車庫9.0
- historical battles will be accessible from hangar, vehicles will switch
automatically to historical configurations apparently, there might be more
historical module setups for one tank
史實戰役可以從車庫直接進入,車會自動換成史實配置,但是一輛車可能有多種配法。
- for team battles, choosing the setup for each map option was not scrapped,
but it will not appear in 9.0
隊伍模式中隨地圖換車的功能未廢案,但不是9.0
- there will be no new map in 9.0
9.0沒有新地圖
- the bug where the notifications about your tanks being hit are delayed will
be fixed by a hotfix
戰車中彈提示延遲會用小更新修正
- Storm states that the alternative hulls will not be a mass issue – they
will appear for a third of all the tanks
Storm表示只有1/3的戰車有可換車體,不會是大問題。
- there will be a German premium (hightier, possibly tier 8) medium tank (in
2014 apparently)
今年(?)會有德國T8PremMT
- it’s not finally decided yet, whether historical battles will allow for
premium tanks, Wargaming developers have long argued about this according to
Storm
還沒確認史實戰役能不能開金幣車出戰
- benchmark function is planned
標竿功能(?)計畫中。
And a few points from another thread with Storm
- it will be possible to play WoT without HD quality in 9.0
9.0可以玩非HD版本
- T57 Heavy will not be nerfed in 9.0
57HT9.0不會砍
- KV-1S will be split into two tanks, most likely in 9.2
KV-1S大約在9.2拆車
--
30 second countdown, someone types the master plan:
"All the noobs rush the hill and the rest def"
random guy: "What is def ?"
"You, rush the hill..."
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
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