Re: [文法] bigger than you realize

看板Eng-Class作者l10nel (小失)時間11年前 (2012/10/14 10:17)推噓1(1推 0噓 162→)

留言163則, 5人參與討論串5/6 (看更多)

本文重點只是希望破除這條不該有的規則：比較句的省略取決於詞性。 → Bolty:Her services are better than her serveices we expected. 10/13 18:39 → Bolty:≠Her services are better than we expected. 10/13 18:39 → Bolty:Her services≠her serveices (we expected) 10/13 18:46 → Bolty:所以than後的her services不可省略，但為避免出現重複名詞， 10/13 18:48 → Bolty:所以用that取代，變成…than that we expected. 10/13 18:50 → Bolty:不好意思，her services我竟然多打一個e = =" 10/13 20:21 推 l10nel:以下兩種說法都不太自然： 10/13 20:28 → l10nel:?Her services are better than her services we expected. 10/13 20:29 → l10nel:?Her services are better than that we expected. 10/13 20:30 → l10nel:其實，最精簡的版本 ... than we expected，其省略部分所指 10/13 20:31 → l10nel:必然是 her services，不可能是別的，如 his services。 10/13 20:32 → l10nel:當然，... than we expected 不是唯一可接受的說法，如要 10/13 20:32 → l10nel:累贅一點，可以用以下幾種說法，都比上述兩個 ? 句常見： 10/13 20:33 → l10nel:...better than what we expected 10/13 20:35 → l10nel:...better than we expected it/them (to be)<-- 保留to be 10/13 20:36 → l10nel:又比省略to be的說法常見許多。 10/13 20:36 → Bolty:補充一下 10/13 20:38 → Bolty:Her services are better than we expected her services. 10/13 20:38 → Bolty:Her services = (we expected) her services 10/13 20:39 → Bolty:但her services在此處也是不能省略，因為在前為主詞在後卻 10/13 20:39 → Bolty:變成受格，性質變了就不能省略，還是僅能以that代替。 10/13 20:40 → Bolty:而且會變成好像在說前後兩句哪一句話更可行，也就是與其說 10/13 20:42 → Bolty:我們期待她的服務不如說她的服務更好。 10/13 20:42 → Bolty:但是正如l10大說的，會邏輯不通，除非剛好有適合的情景。 10/13 20:4 推 l10nel:在前為主詞在後變受格後就不能省略：沒有這回事吧 10/13 20:46 ^^^ 本文第一重點就在論述這點：沒這回事。 → l10nel:「與其期待她的服務不如說她的服務更好」，第一，很難想像 10/13 20:48 → l10nel:某個情境下，能用 Her services are better than we 10/13 20:49 → l10nel:expected 來表達這意思。第二，這在表達取捨，好像和傳統的 10/13 20:51 → l10nel:比較句有出入。 10/13 20:51 → Bolty:我知道有出入，因為聽的人會去猜，所以才會說"好像在說"。 10/13 20:56 → Bolty:基本上，than最基本的作用就是在比較前後兩種情況的可能性。 10/13 20:57 → Bolty:than we expected that her services are (good). 10/13 20:59 → Bolty:為何可以省略成than we expected.在於her services are…. 10/13 21:01 → Bolty:名詞子句中主格依然跟than前的情況一致。 10/13 21:02 → Bolty:we expected的作用是假定情況，在這裡幾乎可以看成從屬連接 10/13 21:03 → Bolty:詞的作用。 10/13 21:03 → hopeliu:沒禮貌終於有人? B大也很熱心解答 B大不是人嗎? 10/13 22:17 → hopeliu:說服你好讓你去投書給長春藤領稿費 ? 10/13 22:19 → Bolty:發現有個地方應該要講清楚 10/13 23:37 → Bolty:Her services are better than we expected that. 10/13 23:37 ^^^ 第二，指出以上這表達法很少見。 → Bolty:that代表的可以是her services，可以是her services are…. 10/13 23:37 → Bolty:若是代表her services，那上面提過了，不合邏輯，語意不清。 10/13 23:38 → Bolty:所以此處that最合理的意思就是her services are…。 10/13 23:38 → Bolty:就回到了than we expected that her services are…。的情況 10/13 23:39 → Bolty:可以省略成than we expected. 10/13 23:39 先不講涉及子句的 expect，先從簡單句開始說： a. 3 servings was necessary. b. They bought 5 servings. c. They bought more (food/servings/0) than ___ (was) necessary. （0 表示空白，more 當代名詞）合併 a b 敘述後的比較句 c 的左邊：無論是 more food、more servings、還是代名詞 more，都是 bought 的受詞。右邊：參考 a 句的說法，空缺處 ___ 顯然是主詞。故，左邊受詞 -> 右邊主詞，但右邊的省略明顯沒問題。故，沒有所謂「詞性不同就不可省略」的規則。再說，右邊連 BE 動詞 was 都可省，成為 than necessary。但左邊，參考 b 句，動詞是 bought，沒有 BE 動詞存在，故，左邊無 BE 動詞 -> 右邊 BE 動詞可省略。故，進一步說，比較句可省略處並不限於左邊字面上存在的字。重點：比較句的省略，由更深層的語意、命題來決定可不可省略。同一個深層的語意、命題 proposition、和「論旨角色」thematic roles （或說「語意角色」 semantic roles），可以在表層的語法文字上透過不同詞性展現出來，但基本的命題和角色都不變。表層文字一：We expected that her services are/would be a 7. (= We expected that they are/would be a 7.) 這裡 her services 是從屬（名詞）子句裡的主詞，故代詞用 they。"a 7" 是主詞補語。表層文字二：We expected her services to be a 7. (= We expected them to be a 7.) 這裡 her services 是主要子句裡動詞 expected 的受詞，to be a 7 是受詞補語，因為是受詞故代詞用 them，不得用 they。這兩個表層文字以不同的詞性來表示 her services，一是（子句的）主詞，一是（主句的）受詞。但兩者所屬於的深層命題和角色（參數）卻都一樣： Prop-A = VALUE(her services, 7) （命題A：她的服務得到7分） Prop-B = EXPECT(we, Prop-A) （命題B：我們預期命題A為真）無論你要用上述哪一個表層文字來表達這個深層的命題B，改為比較句後，可被省略的部分都一樣，原因如上述，省略的東西是可透過對深層命題、語意、角色的瞭解而加以還原的：無論 We expected that her services are/would be a 7 還是 We expected her services to be a 7. 結合 Her services are a 9. 之後，可以表達出來的比較句有好幾種，從精簡到累贅列出幾個，不限於此（見下文，還有 f 和 g 型）： a Her services are better than we expected. b Her services are better than we expected them. c Her services are better than we expected so. d Her services are better than we expected that. e Her services are better than we expected them to be. a-e 依說話者的喜好，或者說，其對表層文字的使用習慣，出現的頻率大不同，但無可否認的，底層的明顯意義就只有上述的那個。個人覺得，a 最頻繁、直接；d 的寫法最為奇怪，應該很少人這麼寫。換句話說，expect +THAT+省略子句句型，如果能用意思相同的 expect + 受詞 + 受詞補語的句型來表達，大家通常選擇後者。以下從母語者編寫的文法書和語料庫來說明母語者直覺選擇哪種句型來表達：一、H&P pp.1106-1107 [1i] It was better than I had expected. The comparison in [1i] is between how good it was and how good I had expected it to be. To describe the meaning we therefore need to invoke variables: we will informally represent the primary term as "It was x good" and the secondary one as "I had expected it to be y good". 注意，上述這段分析比較句意義的段落，使用過兩次 expected 受詞 + "to be" 受詞補語，而不用 expected that it was y good 這種 that 子句句型。這間接說明了作者認為其中一種句型更適於表達，何況這又是在在分析深層語意的場合。二、PEG, p.141 There were more people than we had expected. (NOT: ... than we had expected them.) 這裡，回到上述的 a-e 型，作者明顯選擇 a 句，建議學習者不用 b 句（保留受詞），而有關的 c, d 句（即 that 子句句型）他甚至不提。猜測作者心中根本不將 expect + THAT + 省略子句句型視為適於表達的形式。三、COCA 預料庫 a. than PRONOUN expected. 600+ 筆 e. than PRONOUN expected it/them to VERB 12 筆（受詞 + 受詞補語） b. than PRONOUN expected it/them. 0 筆（受詞，無受詞補語） d. than PRONOUN expected that. 0 筆（that + 省略子句或 that 代名詞） d. than PRONOUN expected that PRONOUN BE-FORM. 0 筆（that 子句） d. than PRONOUN expected PRONOUN BE-FORM. 0 筆（that 子句，that 省略）這些數字都證明了上述對 a-e 直覺的看法，如最精簡的 a 句頻率超高；又如，加了 to be 比單單加了受詞常見。最重要的發現：語料中沒有人使用 than + 代詞主詞 + expected + that. （單獨代詞 that 代表名詞，或代表子句，子句省略）。 better than PRONOUN expected + 子句的表達法並不是完全沒有，最自然的形式是使用 would （配合前面的過去式 expected），並省去 that 字： f. than PRONOUN expected PRONOUN would Verb 6 筆 g. than PRONOUN expected PRONOUN would. 4 筆 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 76.198.133.1 ※ 編輯: l10nel 來自: 76.198.133.1 (10/14 11:19)

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