Re: [考題] What would you do _____?

看板Eng-Class作者tijj (my two cents)時間11年前 (2013/04/12 10:57)推噓7(7推 0噓 6→)

留言13則, 9人參與討論串5/14 (看更多)

※ 引述《l10nel (小失)》之銘言： : ※ 引述《hopeliu (阿翔)》之銘言： : : 推 l10nel:when也可帶出假設句，功能類似if，(a)選項would...were代表 04/06 09:00 : : → l10nel:未來機會很小的假設(remote/tentative/hypothetical)。 04/06 09:02 : : 請教l10nel大， : : 若(a)針對remote/tentative/hypothetical層面來看， : : 這裡的"機會很小"是指跟(1)、(2)相比? 亦即,是(1)、(2)的remote句子? : : (1) What would you do when you are bitten by a snake? : : (2) What will you do when you are bitten by a snake? : : 謝謝 : : → l10nel:by snake是漏抄了a => by a snake。但(a)選項更適用於一個 04/06 09:05 : : → l10nel:在談論過去事情的語境，when表時間，因為這點，猜測(a)不會 04/06 09:07 : : → l10nel:列為出題人設想的"標準"答案。 04/06 09:08 : : ◢▆▅▄▃ ╰(〒皿〒)╯ ▃▄▅▆◣ : : → yangivy:也想問110的意思是 when也可帶出與事實相反的假設？ 04/06 11:48 : : → yangivy:例如 When I were you, I would...這是正常的句子？ 04/06 11:49 : : → yangivy:還是就如字典寫的considering that,用在以條件為主的假定 04/06 11:53 : : → yangivy:狀況？ 04/06 11:55 : : → l10nel:Darren37:一個可能意思,是對未來的假設,不是過去. 這意思, 04/06 13:50 : : → l10nel:現在式are bitten更常見. 04/06 13:50 : : → l10nel:另一個意思就是你說的,對過去的描述,這就不是假設. 04/06 13:52 : : 推 l10nel:yangivy:這是未來不知是否發生的事,所以不該說與"事實"相反 04/06 14:01 : : → l10nel:這是對未來的假設,不同於considering that是對事實的判斷. 04/06 14:03 : : 推 leoblack:我以為應該用What would you do when you had been 04/06 21:47 : : → leoblack:bitten by a snake. 04/06 21:48 : 推 l10nel:不要把重點放在比較不同說法裡，事件發生的絕對機率高低， 04/10 06:15 : → l10nel:畢竟被蛇咬這件事，如果處在同一現實狀況，真正發生的機率 04/10 06:16 : → l10nel:不會因為說話用了哪個字而有所改變。畢竟，那tentativeness 04/10 06:17 : → l10nel:是存在說話者心裡，我們只要知道would指非過去事件時，表達 04/10 06:20 : → l10nel:出這tentativeness就好; 兩子句時態最好一致; if比when常用 04/10 06:26 : 推 tijj:http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Eng-Class/M.1358347388.A.A7D.html 04/10 10:48 : → tijj:套一句hoch博士說的話. 聽不負責任建議倒不如記得要跟母語 04/10 10:49 : → tijj:人士教授確認(A)的合法性. 04/10 10:49 : → tijj:以R/T/H來看,(A)不宜跟(1)、(2)比較,是因為它是 04/10 10:49 : → tijj:ungrammatical (*) . 這才是重點. 04/10 10:50 : → zofloya:why is it ungrammatical? could you explain to me? i 04/10 11:13 : → zofloya:am really interested and eager to learn about it 04/10 11:14 : → zofloya:it sounds okay to me, though i don't know how to 04/10 11:14 : → zofloya:analyze it 04/10 11:15 : → hopeliu:好。謝謝t大指導。 04/10 22:25 : → tijj:Then I guess you are not an English speaker; otherwise A) 04/11 10:13 : → tijj:should contradict your ears, which is the best and 04/11 10:14 : → tijj:easiest explanation. 04/11 10:15 : → tijj::) 04/11 10:15 : → zofloya:indeed, i am not, aside from my poor ears, any more 04/11 11:58 : → zofloya:specific grammatical rules for this sentence? 04/11 11:58 : → tijj:Instead, I would say in your grammatical book are 04/11 17:35 : → tijj:important statements that illustrate t/r/h situations. 04/11 17:35 : 某人說問句 What would you do when you were bitten by a snake? 是 ungrammatical : ，說如果認為它沒問題就是不負責任的建議，結果，被問起論據何在時，答案竟是，因為 : 某某 "native speaker" 認為它聽起來很刺耳，誰要是覺得它 OK 那大概是不習慣說 : 英語？這實在才是不負責任又空洞的理由，更別說那狂妄、不尊重人的語氣了。 : 如果沒見過這種用法，對它存疑，至少該上網搜一搜吧。雖然我們知道，網路上的英文不 : 能照單全收，但我們要抱著一種研究、好奇的心態，仔細看看語料、語境和發生頻率，再 : 做出一番判斷。 : 以下列出 "what would you do when you [past tense]" 的前一兩頁搜索結果。組合太 : 多，只查找 were/had/got/couldn't 幾個常見動詞。每一行結果，我很快點進去看看語 : 境，大致分為以下三種意義： : 1. [past] when 表時間（基本意義），指過去發生的事。 : 2. [temporal] when 表時間，但語境似乎是一個想像中的世界。 : 3. [if] when 基本上可用 if 取代，表示「假設、如果」，意義上不再是指涉過去時間 : ，而是未來或想像情境的假設，when 子句的事件可能發生可能不發生。 : "what would you do when you were" : [if] what would you do when you were the leader of your country? 這不是native speaker...日本人? 德國人? The term 'native speaker' refers to a well-educated native speaker. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://ppt.cc/OKhf : [if] What would you do when you were to be stuck on a mountain with Emily and : Lucas? 這不是native speaker : [if] What would you do when you were so drunk that you called George W. : Bush's phone and invited him for dinner... : and he would come over? yahoo 英文? 他們的身份是？　 : [if] What would you do when you were alone in the world? 部落格英文？　他們的身份是？　:) : [if] What would You do when You were able to Create your own Reality? 網址是.eu 標準英文? : [past] “What would you do when you were bullied?” : [if] What would you do when you were grounded from xbox? : [if] What would you do when you were single? : [temporal] What would you do when you were free? : [past] What would you do when you were younger that you would not do now? : [if] What would you do when you were invisible for 1 day? : [if] What would you do when you were doing a gig and your nose started : itching: : [past] OKAY. WHAT WOULD YOU DO WHEN YOU WERE DOWN THERE? : [temporal] If you had time for everything what would you do when you were : done? : [if] You ask yourself, what would you do when you were a shiny knight, a : damsel in distress or or the wise mage leading a group of adventurers : [if] Let us imagine a situation... Or let's make it more blunt, what would : you do when you were being despised by a tetchy foreigner gung-ho about : trashing your race in your own nation? （這個例子，原文還先明確告訴你「 : imagine a situation」） : [if] What would you do when you were given the second chance to live? : [temporal] Nobody was happier than you when your boyfriend managed to debut : and got his (more than fair) share of fame but what would you do when you : were forced to break up with him? : [past] What would you do when you were upset? : [temporal] If you could go on vacation anywhere, where would it be? Who would : you invite? What would you do when you were there? 我就不一個一個check了... : "what would you do when you had" : [if] What would you do when you had a difficult client? : [if] What would you do when you had a real life encounter with the most : important figure in your religion? : [if] What would you do when you had a lucid dream? : [past] But what would you do when you had performances, like the two leads ... : [if] In that instance of winging that may be true but what would you do when : you had to keep the friend busy while your wing is talking to his target? : [if] What would you do when you had to modify some PHP-Guestbook or Forum : just so it would fit into your page? : [if] What would you do when you had to pay rent and the only option for : employment involved the exploitation of the natural world? : [temporal] if you were accused of doing something that you know you didnt do, : what would you do when you had your appeal? 以上,請你自己去證明 "what would you do when you HAD..." 與 "what would you do when you WERE..." 是一樣的 : "what would you do when you got" : [if] WHAT WOULD YOU DO WHEN YOU GOT KILLED BY STINGER : [if] What would you do when you got stuck in traffic jam on a bus in your : life? : [if] What Would You Do When You Got A Chance of Your Lifetime : [if] What would you do when you got nothing to do ? : [if] what would you do when you got a problem with buy and sell. : [temporal] What would you do when you got there? Imagine no limitations. If : your life were perfect, where would you live? What kind of a home would you : have? : [temporal] If you could become the invisible man, where would you go and what : would you do when you got there? : [temporal] If someone offered to give you a free vacation trip anywhere in : world, where would you go? Why do you want to go to this place? What would : you do when you got there? 以上,請你自己去證明 "what would you do when you GOT..." 與 "what would you do when you WERE..." 是一樣的 : "what would you do when you couldn't" : [if] What would you do when you couldn't play video games anymore? : [past] What would you do when you couldn't find inspiration? : [if] What if a Jacket was possessed by a killer? What would you do when you : couldn’t take it off? : [temporal] What would you do when you couldn't find any solution to a : terribly important problem? : [if] God forbid - what would you do when you couldn't ride? 以上,請你自己去證明 "what would you do when you COULD..." 與 "what would you do when you WERE..." 是一樣的 : 結果，高達六成的結果，語義是 if，這比我原先想像的還高。 : 你也許還是存疑，認為這些全都是「英語不好的人寫的不符英語文法的網路文章」，不足 : 代表什麼，那麼再來看看有沒有同樣的例子印成書本的： : 1. A Gentle Guide to Research Methods - Page 112 : Gordon Rugg, Marian Petre - 2007 : What would you do when it came to writing up your results, and those results : included unpleasant truths about a group that you had come to like? It's : possible to end up feeling strong social bonds with the most unlikely : sounding individuals ... : 2. Chemical Engineering Design and Analysis: An Introduction - Page 77 : T. Michael Duncan, Jeffrey A. Reimer - 1998 : What would you do when you encountered a new unit? But you don't need to : memorize operating equations. Instead, you need only learn how to create : tools to design and operate chemical engineering processes. Operating : equations are ... : 3. Customer Service: Candidate Handbook ; S/NVQ Level 2 By Sally Bradley, 2003 : If you were able to make a video recording of one day in your working life, : how would you like to appear? How would you react to what you see yourself : doing, what you look like and how you talk? What would you do when faced with : a difficult situation? : 以上三本書的例子如果還認為不算數，最厲害的是以下這本： : 4. Essentials of Early Childhood Education By Carol Gestwicki, Jane Bertrand : Codes of Ethics : We noted earlier in the chapter thai a profession has a code of ethics, which : is a siaieincn! of principle thai governs moral behaviour and ethical : decisions. In Canada several professional organizations have developed code : of ethics statements for early childhood educators, to he used as a guide in : making day-to-day decisions. : Early childhood educators are frequently faced with ethical dilemmas in (heir : work with young children and their families: : ‧ What would you do when a parent demanded to know who hit her child? : ‧ What would you do when a co-worker complained to you about another : co-worker's treatment of a child? : ‧ What would you do if a neighbour told you she heard had things about the : last centre vou worked in? : ‧ What would your responsibility be when another teacher told you that : symptoms made her suspect child abuse, but that she was afraid to report it? : 看到沒？最後的四個問句裡，作者用了三個 when，一個 if，在相同的語境、語義下，作 : 者不知不覺地、或者刻意有計劃地交替變換 if/when 的使用，這或許可以讓文章不致呆 : 板。大家應該知道有個英文寫作原則：用各種同義字表達同一概念，讓文章更生動。請你自己去證明這些結構每個全部都跟 "what would you do when you WERE..."是一樣的 : 那你大概要問，有沒有文法書注意到這個「好像還是不太對勁」的 when 用法的？有的： : 首先，English Grammar in Use, 3e 直接這樣告訴你： : What would you do if you were bitten by a snake? (not when you were bitten) : 是的，這本基礎英語（中小學程度？）教材直接嚴禁你用 when 代替 if 的假設。原因？ : 我懶得去察看它是否提供原因，但如果說明原因，大概不出這個：when 就是指事件的時 : 間啊，就這麼簡單，把這「規則」背下來就是了！我想這書應該很多人用,但我不會覺得這書就是中小學程度？ : 如果你想學的英語只限於這個程度，只想應付考試，那就請遵照這本書的教導，一律嚴格 : 乖乖使用 if。日後你看到網路上、書本上用 when 的，你就笑它不合文法，繼續用你的 : 「when = 時間」概念去理解好了，反正這是你自己的知識，別人管不著。也不必再往下 : 看了。 : 如果你關心、想認識、看懂真實世界的英語，包括網路上應該算是母語人士寫出來的英語 : （小心辨認！），包括寫入書冊的英語，那麼多注意詳盡一點的、高級程度的、描述性質的確是要"小心辨認", 偏偏你也沒做到. : 的（而非而「老師說了算」）英語文法書怎麼說： 1.為何需要請教母語人士教授? 因為語言學相關類科的母語教授們或許不一定懂比我們多,但是母語教授們看過的書與經驗肯定不會比我們少. 會幫我們評斷是否為標準英文(Standard English). 你之前不是很愛扯要精準、要標準(英文)嗎? 怎麼這回又不扯了? 2.為何需要請教母語人士教授? 因為請教語言學相關類科的母語教授們,可以盡量確保學習者對語言的理解或推論是否為正確或合理. 而不是犯了: "書上寫得是對的,但是你的理解是錯的" 的毛病. : Grammar of the English Tense System, Declerck, p673 : VI. The expression of irrealis or tentativeness in when-clauses : Under certain conditions, an adverbial when-clause can use the conditional : perfect to represents its contents as ‘irrealis’, i.e. as counterfactual : (unreal) or tentative. : ... : [examples] : ... : Sentences like these would appear to run counter to the widespread belief : that when-clauses differ from if-clauses in that they are presupposed to be : factual. The truth is that adverbial when-clauses presuppose actualization of : the when-clause situation in some possible world, but not necessarily in the : actual world. (The when-clause and the head clause must, however, always : refer to the same possible world.) Sometimes the world in question involves : situations which at some time or other are expected to actualize later. This : is the case in sentences like the following: : John said he would commit suicide when a nuclear war broke out. 這結構,請你自己去證明,與"What would you do when you were..."是一樣的. : The speaker here refers to a world of expectation (existing in John’s mind) : in which the when-clause situation actualizes. He does not say anything about : actualization of the when-clause situation in the real world. : 這裡的 when a nuclear war broke out，指的就是說話人心中一個假想世界的情況。既 : 然是假想世界，和真實世界沒有任何關聯，就沒有對事件在真實世界發生或不發生有所交 : 代、評估；換句話說，在現實中可能發生，可能不發生。 : 回去看看前面例子，有的直截了當告訴你這是假想狀況，其他如「當上國家領導人」、「 : 茫到打電話邀請布希來共進晚餐」、「遇到難以應付的客戶」等等，和「被蛇咬」一樣， : 在現實中發生機率有高有低，但是不是「when 代表時間時」的必然發生，也不是「與現 : 實相反」的絕對不可能。 : when 子句可用現在式，可用過去式，兩者都可代表「if、條件、可能」。現在式就很直 : 接，大剌剌表示這事情不無可能，過去式則表達說話者心態上的一種委婉、客氣、不確定 : 感、remoteness、tentativeness，你總不希望以現在式的直接，讓對方聽了以為你希望 : 他真的有一天被蛇咬吧？ : 結論：What would you do when you were bitten by a snake? 如果語境不支持代表「 : 過去事實」的意義，另一個意思就是「你如果/萬一被蛇咬，你會怎麼做？」的假設意義 : 。 : 以上應該已有足夠資料證明、論述這個用法的合理性。瞭解這個用法的存在，並不等於寫 : 作時、尤其考試時就建議你大膽使用，因為你已經知道，這世上有多少「老師」只允許你 : 使用他所允准的那一套規則，而那套規則跟現實可能有一段不小的差距。自己學習如何判 : 斷真假是非才是要緊的事。以上應該已有足夠資料證明,這些全是你個人的推論, 你個人的推論有經確認過為正確嗎? 我沒有義務一個一個把你的錯誤給挑出來. 以我熟知的Harvard與MIT評分標準來看, 你交出這樣的reasoning, 不少教授應該會死當你. 最後,我再幫大家釐清一個問題,而不是給一大長串個人推論,給一堆例句就好像很正確. 針對原問題,直接挑戰原問題,不敢嗎? 請有興趣的人可以前去直接了當詢問英語語言學相關科系的母語人士教授: 1. "What would you do when you were bitten by a snake?" can express a remote/tentative/hypothetical meaning like an IF-clause? Is it grammatical? 2. Does it belong to standard english (or non-standard english)? 記得經過確認這推論是正確的之後,在來呼喊What would you do when you were bitten by a snake可以表達r/t/h的意思還不遲.

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zofloya

04/12 11:52, , 1^F

04/12 11:52, 1^F

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zofloya

04/12 11:53, , 2^F

04/12 11:53, 2^F

※ 編輯: tijj 來自: 210.69.13.1 (04/12 15:36)

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hopeliu

04/12 21:24, , 3^F