Re: [文法] ____ it rains, go into the building.

看板Eng-Class作者l10nel (小失)時間12年前 (2012/02/20 16:40)推噓3(3推 0噓 31→)

留言34則, 7人參與討論串27/28 (看更多)

*[m※ 引述《tijj (my two cents)》之銘? :只要Mary認同statement 1, 就是certainty. 她就應該用when. :至於為何用when較好? 已有5位教授回答. 這個討論串最後的問題老早已經不是when/if哪個比較好，已經多次說過不是了，也沒人要再爭辯這個問題，大家都已同意作答時會選when，卻還有人繼續祭出五個教授回答「 when比較好」。模糊焦點？迷糊仗？ :6. :Yes, "It is raining soon" could be said and make perfect sense depending :on context. :Professor John Watkins :University of Minnesota, Twin Cities :如所說是爭議的句子, 結果Prof Watkins居然還在make perfect sense. 唯獨第六個教授 Professor John Watkins 針對 It is raining soon 的簡短回答算是有點搔到癢處，但可惜發問者沒有交代引出這回答的問題全貌。為了把問題拉回到焦點，我以下跟各位分享我和同一位教授請益，請他澄清先前回答的完整問與答。最後，也分享和英語教學學者、文法書編寫者 Dr Luke Prodromou 簡短通訊的完整問與答。重述一次，兩個相關的焦點問題是： It is raining soon. 這句話 1) 是否合乎文法； 2) 是否該出現在考試的題目中。底下出現的 ^^^^^^ 強調部分是我自己加的。 =========================================== 1) Professor John Watkins 去文： Dear Professor Watkins, I am a participant in an English-learning forum. I'm writing to consult you about a sentence, "It is raining soon", that another participant quoted you as supporting. The discussion arose because this sentence occurred in a mock test for English proficiency in Taiwan. The other participant didn't cite the whole correspondence with you, but quoted you as saying "Yes, 'It is raining soon' could be said and make perfect sense depending on context." The main debate is about two points--whether this sentence is syntactically and semantically correct, and whether it belongs in a standardized test. My own research, focusing on the correctness/grammaticality of the sentence for English learners, found no published English grammar books or usage guides that support using the present progressive tense in predicting a future event, and that is also my view. These publications say that the present progressive can be used for a future event only if it's planned or scheduled ("We're leaving tomorrow") or scientifically calculable ("The sun is rising at 6:15 tomorrow"). For "It is raining soon" to be correct, we would have to have the ability to make it rain on schedule or calculate the exact time of the next rain in the same way we know when the next scheduled train arrives or calculate the time of the next sunrise. Two publications, a linguistics paper and an entry-level grammar book, even call out this exact sentence as incorrect (not merely acceptable in an informal, conversational context) or semantically anomalous for the same reason as the other books I looked at. Could you please clarify what you mean when you said the sentence "could be said and make perfect sense depending on context"? Do you mean: a) although grammatically incorrect (we should say "It is going to rain soon" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ or "It will rain soon" when we make predictions), it is conceivable that it ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ has been said by some people because the meaning is clear; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ or b) in a suitable fictional context, for example, one in which rain is schedulable or precisely predictable, the sentence would be natural; or c) the sentence is obviously correct, grammatical, natural English in any normal, everyday context because we use the present progressive tense to make future predictions; or something else? The person quoting you believes that your earlier response is proof that this sentence is perfectly fine to appear in the scholastic ability test for English. I am hoping to get your clarification on this point. Judging the sentence to be ungrammatical or incorrect does not mean it hasn't been uttered by learners of English or even native speakers of English, nor does it mean the utterance "It is raining soon" can't be understood; in fact the speaker's intended meaning is easily understood. Yet in my opinion this doesn't make it a good, valid, grammatical, or correct example sentence for the purpose of teaching and learning standard English. I believe that, while this sentence may appear in a fictional conversation (it would reflect a fictional character's level of understanding of English grammar), it does not belong in the text of standardized English proficiency tests intended to test standard English, whether formal or informal. Do you agree? Thanks in advance for any help you can give me with these questions. Your reply will help many other learners of English. Sincerely, ------ 回覆： I think this is where you have to deal with the fact that living, spoken language doesn't always follow the rules. It would indeed be an unusual use of the progressive, but one could imagine a situation where a mother said to her child, "Bill, take your umbrella: it's raining soon" to mean "It is going to rain." In that case, the native ear would hear it is a kind of emphasis, a shortened version of "It is going to be raining soon." Depending on the rules you have been given, I think I'd vote for Option A ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ below. The sentence is not obviously correct grammar, and would probably never be used formally in writing. Hence I'm uncomfortable with Option C. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ But it isn't exactly incorrect either. It could make sense in the precise context I have mentioned. I did not mean option "B" at all, the one where there is a place in which rain falls according to schedule. (Although such a place might be very interesting.) Would I put it on a national test? No, I wouldn't. There is just enough ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ambiguity here to make it a question where people who know the language ^^^^^^^^^ backwards and forwards might disagree. Do you have a category distinguishing being "informal, or colloquial language" and "formal language"? Remember, linguistic grammar is NEVER prescriptive. If native speakers say something and it is understood, it is not "incorrect". It's another thing to say something would work in "Standard Written English." Make sense? This is all very fascinating! ========================================================== 2) Dr Luke Prodromou 去文： Hello, Would it be possible to ask Dr Luke Prodromou, the author of Smash, on a sentence I found in the Smash 2 grammar worksheets, here: http://www.macmillanenglish.com/uploadedFiles/Catalogue/Teenage/Smash/Level_2/Smash%20Grammar%202.pdf At the bottom of page 22: But we can’t use the present continuous when we are talking about things that we think will happen, It is going to rain soon. (not: It is raining soon.) My question is: Is the sentence that is stricken out here, "It is raining soon.", considered incorrect or merely informal by Dr Prodromou (and by teachers of English grammar in general)? For the sake of clarity, incorrect usages should be avoided on all occasions because they don't follow grammatical rules of standard English. Informal usages, on the other hand, are not incorrect and can be used in informal situations, such as in a casual conversation between friends. Regards, ------ 回覆： Hello ------ I have asked the author Dr Prodromou your question. Please see his response below. Regards. "The sentence 'It's raining soon' , in British English, at least, is incorrect; It is not acceptable even in an informal context, if one wishes to ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ conform to British Standard English. There may be varieties of English, including L2 English varieties, where it might be acceptable but I don't know of any." -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 76.198.133.1

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