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作者 tim1112 在 PTT [ SAN ] 看板的留言(推文), 共558則
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11F推: 早期強的武將或軍頭似乎都有在北部或西北打仗的經驗06/18 20:23
12F→: 不過為什麼段系打鮮卑會慘敗 是田夏名過於實還是有其他06/18 20:25
13F推: 不利因素？06/18 20:27
13F推: 但公孫 打黃巾二三十萬大勝06/17 23:42
19F推: 因為牛輔失利一場就想捲包袱逃走 結果逃到一半墜牆摔傷06/14 07:21
20F→: 被手下砍頭領賞 這麼遜砲的表現是要怎樣給高分06/14 07:21
35F推: 程普也是幽州人 一說他跟徐榮都是曾被徵招去打黃巾的軍官06/14 17:43
36F→: 然後就此離開家鄉 而資歷正巧與徐榮相反的是麴義 他是西06/14 17:43
37F→: 涼人士 但卻到了河北至幽州揚威06/14 17:44
38F→: (PS 韓當也是幽州人)06/14 17:50
37F推: 何進本來就是大將軍吧06/06 19:43
2F推: 推05/15 08:58
3F→: 不過這麼說來 剛好也是從幽州南侵的公孫瓚勢力會不會剛好05/15 09:00
4F→: 堵住本來冀州跟幽州做生意的要道 所以更被當成最大麻煩?05/15 09:00
15F推: 孫沒有要統一啊05/14 06:33
4F推: 劉在漢中荊州坦了曹一堆人啊05/13 23:31
6F→: 劉沒有比較輕鬆 也跟曹正面對過了 不能拿孫一直吃不到合05/13 23:33
7F→: 肥就說他最辛苦吧05/13 23:33
3F推: 袁稱帝前打曹操也沒贏 聯手公孫跟陶的團體戰也敗給袁曹劉05/09 12:17
4F→: 集團05/09 12:17
5F→: 稱帝後打劉備也只是不分上下05/09 12:17
10F推: 對他的軍力不看好 搞不好只能跟嚴白虎打成平手05/09 19:23
25F推: 韓資歷其實滿完整的05/11 08:24
26F→: 他會縮的那麼快主要是自己壓不住麴義背叛，北方又有公孫05/11 08:25
27F→: 壓軍。05/11 08:25
28F→: 所以心理負擔一下變超大（河北最能打的兩個人都跑來跟他05/11 08:26
29F→: 玩了）05/11 08:26
30F→: 否則韓的部下根本沒在怕袁紹的05/11 08:26
35F推: 他部下叛的記得就麴義 而西涼麴姓軍官在那時代都幹什麼也05/11 23:49
36F→: 都很一致。我傾向那是麴義人格的問題。05/11 23:49
37F推: 而韓其他手下反對讓州的也不少。但最後是韓決定。否則張05/11 23:52
38F→: 沮等部下好歹也是他讓了之後才轉到袁紹那。05/11 23:52
39F推: 瓚遂引兵入 州，以討卓為名，內欲襲馥。馥懷不自安05/11 23:54
40F→: 他起初怕的應該是北方的白馬長史05/11 23:55
41F→: 以當時戰績來說也可以支持這種論點 公孫瓚本就以對付外族05/12 00:00
42F→: 成名 黃巾亂後又在討伐張純之亂時立功 進入冀州後也有大05/12 00:01
43F→: 破黃巾過 且當時疑似有跟袁術聯合05/12 00:02
44F→: 所以韓馥確實有理由畏懼如日中天的公孫瓚 但反觀袁紹早前05/12 00:03
45F→: 主要的戰果是屠殺宦官 討董聯盟他實戰幾乎沒有 在那時間05/12 00:03
46F→: 點他不太可能被認為比公孫瓚能打05/12 00:04
47F→: 很後來袁紹給獻帝的上書裡面 也自己提過05/12 00:06
48F→: "臣備公族子弟，生長京輦，頗聞俎豆，不習干戈"05/12 00:07
49F→: 拿下冀州後 於夫羅是麴義擊退的 公孫瓚也是麴義 田楷是袁05/12 00:08
50F→: 譚 張燕有呂布幫忙打過 而公孫瓚真正被重創是劉虞事件後05/12 00:09
51F→: 異族劉和麴義聯軍05/12 00:10
52F→: 所以在還沒拿下冀州也沒跟麴相結時 袁紹應該是不怎麼擅長05/12 00:11
53F→: 戰鬥的 因此韓馥部下敢跟袁紹打對臺05/12 00:12
54F→: 但是同樣一批韓馥部下 他們沒有一個人提過可以對付已經要05/12 00:14
55F→: 下來冀州的公孫瓚 所以我認為比較可能真的是公孫逼得韓馥05/12 00:15
56F→: 讓出一切 因此我覺得大義名分反而不是太關鍵05/12 00:16
57F→: 此外如果有意識到公孫被後有袁術，那麼也想找個姓袁（而05/12 00:23
58F→: 且跟自己熟）的來抱腿，這種心態也不是不可能。05/12 00:24
10F推: 呂布不是先背叛劉備嗎05/10 08:16
6F推: 一邊英勇殉國，一邊奔敵偷生。05/08 18:22
8F推: 那個恨應該有捥惜的味道啦05/08 18:40
10F→: 反正劉備也說不怪他了05/08 19:12