Re: [文法] 與事實相反

看板Eng-Class作者 (小失)時間13年前 (2013/01/10 17:51), 編輯推噓4(4029)
留言33則, 6人參與, 6年前最新討論串5/8 (看更多)
※ 引述《l10nel (小失)》之銘言: : 說到 conditionals,文獻一堆,良莠不齊,介紹一本寫得極為嚴謹(比如,不用 : counterfactual 稱呼未發生的事或 were to 句子,也沒有憑空捏造的 will/would = : present/future 區別),又基於語料事實試圖加以歸納整理的書: : Conditionals: A Comprehensive Empirical Analysis : By Renaat Declerck, Susan Reed : http://tinyurl.com/acq2ztz : 此書第 215-219 頁專門說明 were to (表可能性小)的主要用法。 : 除了大量的實例顯示使用正規的 would 外,此書的確指出了 were to 搭配現在式助動 ? : will, can 等字,不無可能,但是所舉的這些少數例子,句子內容有其特殊設定、語 : ,作者並對說話者為何用 will 提出可信的合理化論據。這些特例的情境,遠在 : If he were to steal that, he would be a thief. 這種「正常」句之外。有的這類 : ,作者將之改回為含有 would 的句子,原意不變。 : 這本書以務實、講理的方式處理 would/will,視前者為正常情況,後者為罕見特例( : 符合特定的合適情境),真確反應了語言現實。 → zofloya:可以請l大波出用will的特殊設定、語義的例句或段落嗎,謝~ 01/09 23:24 可能需要花點時間了解一些術語(建議:上 Amazon 看書後的 glossary),請慢用。有 問題可以一起討論。 Conditionals: A Comprehensive Empirical Analysis By Renaat Declerck, Susan Reed (page 174) 5.6 8. Tentative P-clauses combining with a factual Q-clause In direct speech, a tentative P-clause may sometimes combine with a factual Q-clause referring to the present: (319) a. [Wherever you are. you can rely on American express. The Card is widely accepted worldwide, offering you convenient spending power and reassuring security.] If it were ever lost or stolen, your Card can usually be replaced within 24 hours——[the invaluable peace of mind you need when you're travelling.] (COB-W) (tentative P + factual Q) (page 175) b. They can’t go back to Nigeria even if they wanted to, (because everyone back there knows what they’ve been doing here.] (The Bulletin) (factual Q + tentative P) c. He also has an ‘escape’ clause in his contract with Middlesbrough, if he were to be offered the post of England coach. (COB-W) d. If I were to hazard a guess I think it’s very likely he will be the country’s next president. (COB-W) There seem to be a variety of reasons for combining a tentative P-clause with a factual Q-clause, and sometimes there is a choice about whether or not to use a factual Q-clause, whereas sometimes, as in (319c), there is not. It would be possible to rewrite (319a) as follows: (i) If it is ever lost or stolen, your Card can usually be replaced within 24 hours. (ii) If it were ever lost or stolen, we would usually be able to replace your Card within 24 hours. However, while the company does not want to give a negative message that it is quite possible that the card will be lost or stolen, with the result that that possibility is treated as remote, the company wants to be as positive as possible about their ability to replace a card quickly, so this ability is treated as factual rather than as part of the tentative intensional world set up by P. Similarly, (319b) could be rewritten 'They couldn't go back to Nigeria even if they wanted to', but this would place the inability to return in a nonfactual world, which, although it does not rule out the same inability applying in the factual world, weakens the speaker’s message about the real plight of the people referred to. Sentence (319c) cannot be similarly rewritten, but this is due to the fact that it is a ‘pseudo-Q conditional’, i.e. the real Q-clause is missing. The apparent Q cannot be seen as referring to a situation which can be located in the P-world. Sentence (319d), however, can be rewritten 'If I were to hazard a guess, I would think it’s very likely that he would be the country‘s next president'. -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 76.198.133.1

01/10 23:16, , 1F
先謝謝你保貴的時間跟耐心,有幾點要請教你
01/10 23:16, 1F

01/10 23:18, , 2F
1 作者提到a tentative P-clause may"sometimes" combine
01/10 23:18, 2F

01/10 23:19, , 3F
factual Q-clause,instead of "rarely"意思是不是其實也
01/10 23:19, 3F

01/10 23:19, , 4F
不很那麼罕見,只要說話者有特別強調的語義就可以用?
01/10 23:19, 4F

01/10 23:21, , 5F
而且也不會造成聽話者的混淆,聽話者是能分辨出的
01/10 23:21, 5F

01/10 23:22, , 6F
2 所以If he were to steal, he will be a thief.這句如果
01/10 23:22, 6F

01/10 23:23, , 7F
成立,語義上是不是強調他如果有偷(雖然機率非常小),但他
01/10 23:23, 7F

01/10 23:24, , 8F
就是小偷的事實是不容質疑的,還是沒有這種解讀的空間?
01/10 23:24, 8F

01/10 23:26, , 9F
或是暗示說話者在客觀事實上知道if he的he不太可能偷東西
01/10 23:26, 9F

01/10 23:27, , 10F
但可能是之前對he有成見或夙怨,而故意用will的可能性?
01/10 23:27, 10F

01/11 03:46, , 11F
我不會否定這樣的解讀的,只是注意到,兩者的相對頻率仍大,
01/11 03:46, 11F

01/11 03:52, , 12F
在很多場合,如考試、工作、出版等,別人會根據其觀點判斷
01/11 03:52, 12F

01/11 03:57, , 13F
你的用法,你卻沒機會解釋。適時選擇"保守"。另外,千萬別
01/11 03:57, 13F

01/11 04:01, , 14F
將這種would/will的區別誤解成是時間上的現在/未來之分。
01/11 04:01, 14F

01/11 07:01, , 15F
收到。不好意思,還有一個問題就是,一樣都是表達, low
01/11 07:01, 15F

01/11 07:02, , 16F
probability in the future,If he should steal, he will
01/11 07:02, 16F

01/11 07:03, , 17F
be a thief這個句子的接受度是不是就比較廣?比較沒有爭議
01/11 07:03, 17F

01/11 07:04, , 18F
如果是的話,為什麼?習慣用法?還是were to是表達"不可能"
01/11 07:04, 18F

01/11 07:05, , 19F
should+V是表達可能,就說話者的角度
01/11 07:05, 19F
同一本書第 219 頁,說完 were to 便開始用 5 頁的篇幅介紹 should,不過最重要的是 第一段: In both spoken and written British English, should can be used in the P-clause of an open-P or tentative-P conditional to emphasize that the possibility of actualization of the P-situation depends on chance or on some other unpredictable factor. It renders the condition more tentative and is nearly always interchangeable with ‘by any chance’. 第 220 頁其中兩例句分別使用 open/tentative: (426) a. If this appliance should fail to work, we will replace it with another (open condition) (='If, by any chance, this appliance fails to work...') c. If the changes caused hy the Greenhouse Effect should turn out to be as serious as many people think, emissions of all Greenhouse gases would have to be minimised. (COB-W) (tentative condition) The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, p 188 也說: ■ Conditional should This expresses slightly greater doubt than the non-modal counterpart: compare If you should experience any difficulty, please let me know. with If you experience any difficulty,.. This is why it cannot be used when there is no element of doubt at all, as in If you’re my father, why don’t you help me? and the like. It is usually found in open conditionals, but the remote construction is also possible: compare If there should be any opposition, they will/would not go ahead with the plan (where 'will' indicates open, 'would' remote). 所以看法一致,should + will/would 都可以(有些書甚至傾向告訴你只該用 will)。 可能性由高至低: if you experience any difficult (開放的可能)> if you should experience...(多了一點遲疑、保留:by any chance,「要是」) >> if you experienced... (可能性很小,但仍有可能) >= if you were to experience ... (可能性再稍小一點,或語氣更委婉,但仍有可能!) 試圖解釋 should 可能性比 were to 高: should 只是個 modal auxiliary,這種用在 conditional 的 should 屬於 low degree of modality,只在基本的 if you experience 語義上多加了一點遲疑保留,故可能性較 高,接近 if you experience,因此搭配 will 不成問題;它本身的形式也不是像 were to 屬於 subjunctive (儘管舊一點的看法如 Fowler 把 should 稱為 subjunctive), 通常帶有可能性很小、虛擬、假設/不真實世界這類含義。 ※ 編輯: l10nel 來自: 76.198.133.1 (01/11 18:03)

01/12 02:29, , 20F
請教l大所以原問題counterfactual 建議選(d)were to搭配
01/12 02:29, 20F

01/12 02:30, , 21F
would?
01/12 02:30, 21F

01/12 06:00, , 22F
thanks a lot
01/12 06:00, 22F

01/12 06:08, , 23F
to h:當然建議選(d)would,何況是考試,這兩篇內容提供理由。
01/12 06:08, 23F

01/12 06:10, , 24F
但:were to不是counterfactual,指未來,仍有發生的可能,用
01/12 06:10, 24F

01/12 06:12, , 25F
remote/tentative/hypothetical稱之都好過counterfactual
01/12 06:12, 25F

01/14 19:55, , 26F
l大這兩篇都解釋得很清楚了吧 這不是完全不可能發生的
01/14 19:55, 26F

01/14 19:57, , 27F
情況 怎麼還在一直堅持counterfactual?
01/14 19:57, 27F

01/14 20:41, , 28F
謝謝l大解惑
01/14 20:41, 28F

01/14 21:15, , 29F
to TouchAgain:我只是問考試時怎麼選較好 若你眼睛或腦有
01/14 21:15, 29F

01/14 21:16, , 30F
問題 請去就醫
01/14 21:16, 30F

09/07 00:14, , 31F
你的用法,你卻沒機會解 https://daxiv.com
09/07 00:14, 31F

12/02 18:28, , 32F
l大這兩篇都解釋得很清 https://daxiv.com
12/02 18:28, 32F

04/13 22:47, 6年前 , 33F
should+V是表達 http://yaxiv.com
04/13 22:47, 33F
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