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作者 age317 在 PTT [ SAN ] 看板的留言(推文), 共2965則
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8F→:孫河原來不姓孫，孫堅時代本名俞河，孫策賜他姓孫，須注意09/19 01:00
9F推:推一半(後半所論甚是，孫堅闖蕩中原時，也只有孫賁在旁，沒09/18 13:39
10F→:看到其他宗族力量，與劉備闖蕩中原相似。但前半cola兄說的09/18 13:41
11F→:是劉備在名士圈沒名氣(在河北時)，不是說劉備沒沒無聞，何09/18 13:42
12F→:況孔融當時名氣尚未到顛峰(許都時期才是顛峰)，劉備說"孔北09/18 13:44
13F→:海知世間有劉備"不像在酸人，仍是敬慕天下名士的語氣)09/18 13:46
14F推:除非cale兄能夠破解袁術的那句「術生年以來，不聞天下有劉09/18 14:10
15F→:備」，不然很難證明劉備進入名士圈。(袁術這句話雖然是貶低09/18 14:12
16F→:，但假如換別人如田楷、顏良、臧霸接了陶謙的徐州刺史，袁09/18 14:13
17F→:術一定也會大罵"術生年以來，不聞天下有田楷、顏良、臧霸"09/18 14:14
4F推:推一個09/17 22:43
1F→:君(曹操)以國士待我，我以國士報之；君(張魯)以路人待我...09/15 02:13
1F推:推前、中部分，不過根據後漢書、通鑒，劉虞不死於初平三年09/14 15:42
2F→:(192年)，而是死於初平四年(193年)。另外幽州士族在曹魏有09/14 15:44
3F→:劉放、西晉有張華，都被重用，看不出來"幽州內耗"的問題。09/14 15:46
4F→:事實上魏晉的幽冀士族普遍門第都略低(鄉品三品為常態)，因09/14 15:49
5F→:為九品官人法實施的時候，最大的受益者是兗、豫、司三州的09/14 15:50
6F→:人士，這包括豫州的汝潁人、譙沛人；兗州的文法吏；司州的09/14 15:52
7F→:大族如司馬懿、賈逵、裴潛等。幽冀士族被壓低的故事可以參09/14 15:55
8F→:考陳群嘲諷河北第一名士崔琰為"智不保身"，讓崔琰族弟崔林09/14 15:56
9F→:很不爽。所以幽州士族是跟冀州人一起被壓低，似無內耗問題09/14 15:58
12F推:小市井是賈逵的祖先，不是儒生出身、好讀左傳的賈逵時代09/14 16:09
20F推:賈逵的青年似乎史料不齊，但即使早年貧窮的賈逵不算大族，09/14 22:28
21F→:至少明確是"大姓"("逵世為著姓")，所以能當儒生、娶的老婆09/14 22:29
22F→:也是門當戶對的柳氏(後來的河東郡姓韋、裴、柳之一)，這說09/14 22:31
23F→:明漢末賈逵的門第偏高，可能比早年的司馬懿還高(娶小族張春09/14 22:33
24F→:華)。另外對karl7238要說句不好意思，我的概念已經在推文中09/14 22:35
25F→:講完了，再發文章頂多只是附史料而已，意義不大09/14 22:36
26F→:(前五行說河東郡姓有韋氏是筆誤，河東郡姓為裴、柳、薛)09/14 22:41
27F推:我覺得張華的門第到滅吳後出任幽州都督、"繡衣晝行"(衣錦還09/14 23:15
28F→:鄉)的時候，門第(鄉品)很可能已升到最高的二品了。如果不是09/14 23:16
29F→:，那最晚到惠帝時張華當上司空後，門第篤定為二品了09/14 23:18
42F推:燕國閻柔似乎就是半割據的幽州軍閥，可惜不知結局09/15 01:45
43F→:查了一下，閻柔的勢力可能在236年左右毌丘儉接任閻柔的度遼09/15 01:56
44F→:將軍(北邊軍屯區、自有軍府，地位在烏桓校尉之上)之後，就09/15 02:03
45F→:被曹魏中央接收了09/15 02:05
47F→:因為228年閻柔弟閻志正在當上谷太守，表示家族勢力仍在幽州09/15 02:33
50F推:其實我不太懂cale大預設曹魏本該出現"幽州派"士族的原因，09/15 15:19
51F→:願聞其詳。 我只知道曹魏初期有汝潁派、譙沛派，甚至短暫隱09/15 15:20
52F→:晦的河內派(楊俊為領袖)，但最後到魏明帝時都衰落、瓦解了09/15 15:22
53F→:，因為在曹叡的高壓統治下，任何派系都會衰解的。受重用的09/15 15:27
54F→:幽州人劉放當也是戰戰兢兢，沒有膽量拉拔出一個"幽州派"09/15 15:28
71F推:幽州在漢末三國不算大州，晉初戶口與并州相同，但東漢幽州09/16 11:39
72F→:人口卻是并州的4.5倍(即使晉初的幽州+平州，戶口數也不及兗09/16 11:42
73F→:州)。我覺得曹操始終沒在幽州建立有效統治，觀察點就是幽州09/16 11:45
74F→:缺乏有威名的刺史或都督，而曹操在并(梁習)、兗(程昱)、豫09/16 11:51
75F→:(劉勳兄、王必？)、冀(曹操、荀衍)四州都有這樣的角色，有09/16 11:52
76F→:↑誤，王思才是以威名的豫州刺史09/16 11:55
77F→:效的招集人口、吸納人才，使得這四州成為曹操統治的核心區09/16 11:56
98F→:并州人士在魏國受重用，是因為刺史梁習和河內名士楊俊積極09/17 01:00
99F→:引用提拔(可參三國志梁習、楊俊傳)，才出現河內、并州士族09/17 01:06
100F→:(部分)互相提拔、勢力龐大的現象。不過許多并州人也頗有才09/17 01:11
101F→:幹，未必都是梁習與司州人(楊俊、司馬懿、賈逵)所引薦而成09/17 01:14
102F→:功，譬如并州太原人溫恢、郭淮、孫資、令狐邵(族子愚)09/17 01:15
12F推:推09/14 00:29
48F推:推teyao大09/14 00:26
23F推:推cale大09/11 09:51
54F→:我覺得一直到官渡戰後的幾年之內，蒯、蔡二族仍然沒有足夠09/12 01:28
55F→:的力量操控劉表的軍事計畫，建安八、九年之前，劉表應該仍09/12 01:32
56F→:掌有北伐曹操的實踐能力。等到八、九年劉表大將凋零死去，09/12 01:33
57F→:蒯、蔡實力相對提升，或攫取了兵將領導權，這才使得蒯、蔡09/12 01:36
58F→:在荊州呼風喚雨(赤壁之戰前四年內)，親曹路線獲得最後勝利09/12 01:38
59F→:。所以過早地認定劉表無力駕馭蒯、蔡等親曹士族，是低估劉09/12 01:40
60F→:表的統治手段與能力，也高估了蒯蔡稱霸荊州的時間長度09/12 01:43
61F→:雖然劉表一向被低估，甚至他是漢末三國最得荊州民心的統治09/12 02:00
62F→:者這件事，也都被刻意忽略(劉備不如他得荊州民心、羊祜晉人09/12 02:00
64F→:劉表得民心是因為他很少做損害荊州利益的事(但不是沒做)，09/12 13:48
66F→:然後常做有利荊州的事(譬如他可能壓迫外來人去服務荊州人)09/12 13:53
78F→:劉表已經「持節將斬」韓嵩了，要斬絕對能斬，但是後來劉表09/12 21:49
79F→:拷問韓嵩手下，證明韓嵩並無異志，才對他只囚不殺09/12 21:51
80F→:另外回swallow大，我不是說蒯蔡在官渡時無力制衡，我是說09/12 21:53
81F→:蒯蔡在建安八年前無法主導劉表的路線，仍非荊州的地下老闆09/12 21:56
84F→:蔡夫人介入和劉表拷問韓嵩手下兩因並不互斥，蔡夫人求情在09/12 23:13
85F→:前，劉表拷問在後，這是後漢書的記載，比三國志的註釋全面09/12 23:16
7F推:我聽說是真的 我也傾向是真的09/09 12:22
10F推:推樓上t大，特別是關西氣氛詭譎，很多關西人以為漢獻帝被09/03 22:36
11F→:曹丕殺了，蘇則就誤以為真而替獻帝舉喪，事後才發現糗大了09/03 22:38
12F→:。曹丕質問郭淮，也是在逼他對篡位表態，看他是否跟領下的09/03 22:40
13F→:關西人一樣"同流合汙"(曹丕視角)09/03 22:41
18F推:官員和士族在六朝時代過的是群居生活，同事之間互相照應、09/03 23:57
19F→:幫助，不想彼此親近都很難，董昭大概是工作累了，想說和同09/03 23:59
20F→:事蘇則有"革命情感"(同為侍中)，借膝蓋躺一下休息，卻想不09/04 00:00
21F→:到被蘇則打臉羞辱09/04 00:01
22F推:譬如名士梁武帝和沈約當初共為南齊竟陵王的賓客幕僚時(號稱09/04 00:05
23F→:竟陵八友)，彼此卻文人相輕不太熟悉，直到梁武帝當皇帝後，09/04 00:07
24F→:發現沈約的才幹並任用他當宰相時，才說出："生平與沈休文群09/04 00:08
25F→:居，不覺有異人處，今日才智縱橫，可謂明識"09/04 00:08
26F→:(沈約字休文) (朕)09/04 00:09