Re: [討論] 魏延不告訴你的子午谷(二)
※ 引述《asdf95 (K神我們巴西見)》之銘言:
: 最後談談為什麼花不少篇幅談京師倉,魏延的子午谷戰略依本傳〝延每隨亮出,輒欲
: 請兵萬人,與亮異道會于潼關,如韓信故事,亮制而不許。〞(三國志‧魏延傳),京
: 師倉在潼關未建前,擔負就是後來潼關的任務:關中東大門,地處險要,水陸兩道要
: 地,從王莽傳也看出京師倉效果驚人,直到長安陷落、王莽身亡才投降,先不論潼關
: 在曹魏時期是否有經營,光據有潼關能如何?單單一個潼關跟據有京師倉有何差別?
京師倉在漢宣帝時已經沒用了, 而要拖到三國, 也是兩百多年後的事了.
這會不會想太多了?
: 後續的戰略就文中「韓信故事」而言,想要據有關中曹魏關中兵防不在潼關,在郿,
: 是否要分兵擊郿?郿可比修繕後的陳倉,沒內應想硬攻有這麼容易?
:
: 單據潼關等諸葛亮至,曹魏主力在洛,雙方勢必圍繞潼關附近爭搶,論補給距離曹魏
: 明顯優於蜀漢,不管水陸只要從洛就近補給,跟曹操時期已經不同,曹操後勤基地在
: 鄴,兩者差距不少;蜀漢從漢中往潼關運補則要從子午道、儻駱道、褒斜道、故道間
: 選擇,不管那條都不好走,還要面臨來自郿的威脅
:
在郿這件事請問一下出處, 我只能從
曹真傳:
諸葛亮圍祁山,南安、天水、安定三郡反應亮。帝遣真督諸軍軍郿,遣張郃擊亮將馬謖
既然是要軍郿, 就表示最少沒什麼兵在哪. 還是你的別譯法?
: 退一步說,如果曹魏選擇繞過潼關,主力與蜀漢在潼關對峙,分兵駐紮華陰,直接斷
: 蜀漢後路,又該如何應對?就算讓蜀漢取得戰術勝利,真的取得關中,以關中此時的
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
除非諸葛亮像馬超他們哪樣, 給曹操過了渭水, 不然, 頂多隔河相望而已.
: 農業生產力養的起蜀漢大軍嗎?關中已經不是楚漢相爭的關中,生產力不可同日而語
有多少生產力, 真的沒數字, BUT, 可以從
遠的, 曹操VS 馬超, 雙方各帶上六七萬兵, 在潼關搞多久呢, 七月開始
打打停停的到年底, 才完全搞定馬超事.
之後呢, 放夏侯淵屯長安. 而夏侯淵於長安,
由後漢書·陳琳《檄吳將校部曲文》:
又使征西將軍夏侯淵等,率精甲五萬,及武都氐羌、巴漢銳卒,南臨汶江,搤據庸蜀
打個折約有三/四萬兵, 這等兵力, 在關中地區玩多久, 由十七年, 玩到二十四年五月
其間三月起, 曹老又拉十萬大隊來戰劉備救張郃.玩到五月收兵.
哪麼, 在關中放三/四萬兵, 也有六年的時間了.
再說, 十八,十九, 二十 這三年夏侯淵在忙著跟隴右打, 打涼州呢.
而夏侯淵傳:
二十一年,增封三百戶,并前八百戶。還擊武都氐羌下辯,收氐穀十餘萬斛。
這要說關中無糧, 全靠洛陽補給?
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