[專欄] The Next Big Thing: Real +/-已回收

看板NBA作者 (=\)時間10年前 (2014/04/08 07:05), 10年前編輯推噓44(45134)
留言80則, 45人參與, 最新討論串1/4 (看更多)
標題類別想了好久,應該算是外絮,但是引用兩篇文章 反正都是在討論 真實正負值(RPM: real plus minus) 所以用專欄來定義好了 @@ 原文: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus 數據: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau recently made the case for Taj Gibson as the NBA's Sixth Man of the Year. "I think that the biggest thing for him is what he has contributed to us winning," said Thibs. "The things that he does for us are all team-oriented. He plays great defense, challenges shots, guards everybody, runs the floor hard, sets great screens, does his job." 公牛教頭錫伯杜最近認為手下悍將Taj Gibson應該要被 考慮為最佳第六人。「我認為最重要的是-他做了很多幫我們贏球的事, 大部份的事情都是用整體來看才看得出來的。他防守,干擾投籃, 守五個位置,在場上盡力奔跑,做出漂亮的單檔,做好該做的事。」 So Gibson helps his team win by doing all the little things that never show up in a box score. But how can we measure the value of running the floor hard, or making smart defensive rotations, or setting great screens? 簡單來說,Gibson在場上做了一堆不會在分數盒中列出的小事 幫助球隊贏球。我們要用什麼方式來顯示出這種貢獻呢? And how can we tell if Gibson has been more valuable to his team than, let's say, Clippers sixth man Jamal Crawford, who has scored more points than Gibson (18.6 versus 13.2 PPG) on a higher true shooting percentage (55.7 versus 52.8) while logging heavier minutes (30.3 versus 28.8 MPG) for a better team in a tougher conference? 而且我們要怎樣才能比較出來Gibson比快艇的最佳第六人Jamal Crawford 還更有價值呢?Crawford比Gibson更能得分(18.6ppg vs 13.2ppg), 而且投籃也更精準(真實命中率 55.7% vs 52.8%),上場時間也更多 (30.3mpg vs 28.8mpg),並且在比較強的球隊和比較艱難的西區? Today we're introducing an advanced metric that can help us out: real plus-minus (RPM). 今天我要向大家介紹ESPN一個新的進階數據來幫助我們: 真實正負值(RPM)。 What is real plus-minus? 什麼是RPM? As the name suggests, real plus-minus shares a family resemblance with the +/- stat in the box score, which merely registers the net change in score (plus or minus) while each player is on the court. 就如同名字所敘,RPM跟分數盒上的 +/-值是屬於同一家族的。 然而一般+/-值代表的只是單純的該球員在場上球隊的勝分或負分差。 RPM is inspired by the same underlying +/- logic: If a team outscores its opponents when a player is on the court, he's probably doing something to help his team, whether or not he's putting up big numbers. RPM是利用與此相同的概念-當一個球員在場上時對球隊的整體幫助 而不論他個人表現與否。 But the familiar +/- stat has a serious flaw: Each player's rating is heavily influenced by the play of his on-court teammates. 但是睿智的鄉民都知道一般+/-值有著嚴重的缺失: 會大幅度受到跟你一起上場球員的影響。 For example, in the basic +/- numbers, Thunder backup point guard Reggie Jackson is ranked 27th in the league. But he's also spent the majority of his minutes playing alongside Kevin Durant, the league's likely MVP. What we really want to know is how much of Jackson's elite rating is attributable to his own play, and basic +/- simply can't tell us. 舉例來說,如果只看一般的+/-值,你會發現雷霆的替補控衛 Reggie Jackson在聯盟能排到第27位!但是他大部份上場的時間都是 和今年最有可能的MVP-Kevin Durant一起。我們真正想要知道的是, 這個+/-有多少能看成是Jackson自己的功勞,而不是靠KD,而一般的 +/-值並不能告訴我們這一點。 But real plus-minus can. 但是真實正負值可以。 Where does real plus-minus come from? RPM是從哪來的咧? Drawing on advanced statistical modeling techniques (and the analytical wizardry of RPM developer Jeremias Engelmann, formerly of the Phoenix Suns), the metric isolates the unique plus-minus impact of each NBA player by adjusting for the effects of each teammate, opposing player and coach. 從進階的數據分析技術而來(分析師Jeremias Engelmann), 這個分析把隊友,對手和教練的影響考量進去, 把個別NBA球員的正負影響分離出來。 The RPM model sifts through more than 230,000 possessions each NBA season to tease apart the "real" plus-minus effects attributable to each player, employing techniques similar to those used by scientific researchers when they need to model the effects of numerous variables at the same time. RPM模型是利用NBA每一季超過23萬次球權來分析有多少+/-屬於 個別球員的貢獻。這裡運用的運算技術和科學研究上常常要用來 分析多種變異值是類似的。 RPM estimates how many points each player adds or subtracts, on average, to his team's net scoring margin for each 100 possessions played. The RPM model also yields separate ratings for the player's impact on both ends of the court: offensive RPM (ORPM) and defensive RPM (DRPM). 簡單來說,RPM預計該球員上場時,平均能為球隊在100次球權 中帶來多少的正負變化。因此,RPM可以更細分為防守RPM(DRPM)和進攻RPM (ORPM)。 So, Gibson or Crawford? 所以,是Gibson還是Crawford強? Let's return to the previous comparison of Taj Gibson and Jamal Crawford. The chart shows their respective RPM ratings. 讓我們回到Gibson vs Crawford的問題上。看看下表。 REAL PLUS-MINUS (2013-14) PLAYER ORPM DRPM RPM T. Gibson 0.70 3.42 4.12 J. Crawford 1.53 -1.96 -0.43 Crawford has the higher offensive RPM (+1.53 versus +0.70), but the advantage turns out to be surprisingly small, given Crawford's scoring talents. It's worth only about one additional point per game. Crawford有著更高的ORPM,但是差別比想像中小,尤其如果 考量Crawford是個搶分高手。但是Crawford只勉強比Gibson多一分。 And on the other end, the players are miles apart. In fact, Gibson's defensive impact (+3.42 DRPM) is large enough to give him a truly elite overall RPM rating (+4.12), placing him in the company of All-Stars like James Harden (+3.44 RPM), Chris Bosh (+3.75), Joakim Noah (+3.89), Russell Westbrook (+4.09) and Dwight Howard (+3.99). 另一方面,兩個球員相差就不可以道里計了。 事實上,Gibson的防守影響讓他的整體RPM(+4.12)甚至可以和全明星 James Harden(+3,44), Bosh (+3.75), Noah (+3.89), 西河(+4.09) DH12 (+3.99)相提並論。 In contrast, Crawford appears to give away a bit more on defense (-1.96 DRPM) than he contributes on offense, with an overall RPM impact (-0.43) that's slightly below the league average. 相反的,Crawford在防守端成為球隊的負擔(-1.96), 這甚至讓他的整體RPM(-0.43)略低於聯盟平均(0)。 The Durant factor Durant效應 RPM can also shed light on our question about the true impact of third-year guard Reggie Jackson, as the table shows. RPM也可以讓我們知道前面所說的Jackson對球隊的真實影響力。 REAL PLUS-MINUS (2013-14) PLAYER ORPM DRPM RPM K. Durant 6.10 0.67 6.77 R. Westbrook 4.08 0.01 4.09 S. Ibaka 0.47 2.63 3.10 R. Jackson 0.67 0.82 1.49 RPM accounts for the contributions of OKC stars Durant, Russell Westbrook and Serge Ibaka (as well as Jackson's other teammates). RPM會考量OKC其他隊友的貢獻來作修整。 After doing so, RPM indicates Jackson has had a moderately positive impact this season on both sides of the ball. His total RPM rating (+1.49), while far below that of his more heralded teammates, is consistent with the play of a quality NBA starter, and it's higher than that of more established guards such as Lance Stephenson, Kevin Martin and Wesley Matthews. 在修整後,我們看出Jackson的確也還維持著正面的影響(+1.49), 但是跟他的明星隊友比就還是差了一個檔次,基本上這說明他足以擔當 合格的先發,他的RPM比Lance Stephenson, Kevin Martin和Wesley Mattews 都還高。 The King of RPM? RPM的王? Let's close with a quick look at the game's greatest all-around player, LeBron James. 讓我們回頭來看看NBA裡最全能的球員Lebron James。 LeBron has been accused of coasting at times this season, and RPM reveals where the charge may have merit. Lebron本季被外界說常常養身,讓我們用RPM來看看 這個指控是否成立。 REAL PLUS-MINUS (2013-14) PLAYER ORPM DRPM RPM L. James 8.32 -0.21 8.11 While LeBron was aptly named to the NBA All-Defensive Team last season, his defensive impact this season has been surprisingly mediocre, at least as measured by RPM (-0.21 DRPM). His rating is consistent with the claim that James has not consistently given his best effort this season on the defensive end. 去年Lebron毫無疑問的入選NBA防守第一隊, 今年他在防守端的表現卻非常一般,甚至對球隊帶來些微負面的影響(-0.21)。 這讓那些指控他在防守端上未盡全力的看法不謀而合。 Does the same hold true on offense? No. Offensively LeBron has been as dominant as ever, and his +8.32 ORPM leads the league by a comfortable margin. This means that despite his less-than-stellar defensive contribution, LeBron's total RPM (+8.11) still rates as the NBA's highest this season. 不過在進攻端上是否也是如此呢?不。 進攻端上Lebron還是很有統治力。他的ORPM(+8.32)領先聯盟其他人 不止一個檔次。事實上,這樣的領先讓他即使扣掉他不及格的DRPM後, 整體RPM(+8.11)依然是聯盟最高。 Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean he should be regarded as the league's MVP. There's a certain prolific scorer in OKC who has also put up a stellar RPM number this season, and he's done so while playing more possessions than LeBron. 當然,這不代表他就應該奪得聯盟的MVP了。因為在雷霆的那位 也不是吃素的,同樣有著相當高的RPM,並且他進攻和防守的球權次數 也比Lebron更高。 Later this week we'll look at how RPM can be used to estimate the number of wins each player adds to his team. In other words, we'll introduce a new lens through which to view this season's MVP race. (Spoiler alert: It's close. Very close.) 接下來我們將會用這項新的數據來幫我們預測哪個球員 對他的球隊提供了最多勝利。也就是說,我們用一種新的方向 和思維去看本季MVP應該獎落誰家。(爆雷:比數很接近,非常接近。) ============================================================ 說實話這篇敘述文沒有提到任何公式,還滿難看懂是怎麼算的。 不過提到這個改良版的+/-有考量一起上場的隊友因素和球隊勝敗因素等等 不管怎樣應該是比傳統+/-值有參考價值? -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 72.34.128.250 ※ 文章網址: http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/NBA/M.1396911932.A.19D.html

04/08 07:13, , 1F
推,好文!
04/08 07:13, 1F

04/08 07:17, , 3F
ESPN的統計
04/08 07:17, 3F

04/08 07:19, , 4F
所以最後說的應該是CP3 的確很接近
04/08 07:19, 4F

04/08 07:19, , 5F
至於KD的RPM還差這兩個人一截
04/08 07:19, 5F

04/08 07:20, , 6F
基本上只要>0的就算是好球員 <0的就有些問題了
04/08 07:20, 6F

04/08 07:21, , 7F
IGGY好高
04/08 07:21, 7F

04/08 07:23, , 8F
順帶一提 KI的OPM算高 可是防守DPM直接扣到-值
04/08 07:23, 8F

04/08 07:25, , 9F
D.J. Augustin -4.66,可是公牛迷應該不會同意這結果
04/08 07:25, 9F

04/08 07:25, , 10F
好文推
04/08 07:25, 10F

04/08 07:28, , 11F
LBJ的轉速真高
04/08 07:28, 11F

04/08 07:29, , 12F
小貝是火箭隊最高!
04/08 07:29, 12F

04/08 07:30, , 13F
我火推推
04/08 07:30, 13F

04/08 07:35, , 14F
剛剛排了下WAR 如果以WAR來看 KD倒是第二名緊追LBJ
04/08 07:35, 14F

04/08 08:03, , 15F
修正一開始的說法 <0或>0不見得就是好或壞
04/08 08:03, 15F

04/08 08:12, , 16F
LBJ的數據永遠都要仔細去看才發現還是聯盟第一…籃球
04/08 08:12, 16F

04/08 08:12, , 17F
之神二世
04/08 08:12, 17F
※ 編輯: kart (72.34.128.250), 04/08/2014 08:23:47

04/08 08:26, , 18F
胡子防守不比DH差﹖按這個數據得出的結論
04/08 08:26, 18F

04/08 08:27, , 19F
樓上神結論 DPM有看嗎?
04/08 08:27, 19F

04/08 08:28, , 20F
DRPM
04/08 08:28, 20F

04/08 08:29, , 21F
鬍子-2.44, DH12 +4.87....好歹看一看再下結論...
04/08 08:29, 21F

04/08 08:29, , 22F
推好文
04/08 08:29, 22F

04/08 08:43, , 23F
推 感謝整理分享
04/08 08:43, 23F

04/08 08:47, , 24F
小貝14名(4.57) 豪豪139名(0.36) 別再怪冰箱了
04/08 08:47, 24F

04/08 08:48, , 25F
不過沒有提到RPM計算方式 蠻難理解的
04/08 08:48, 25F

04/08 08:59, , 26F
這個數據若以文字來看 應該是更仔細的套入同時
04/08 08:59, 26F

04/08 09:01, , 27F
在場隊友的數據 那實在是個超級大工程
04/08 09:01, 27F

04/08 09:02, , 28F
並且會受打鐵隊友的影響 例如昨天的melo
04/08 09:02, 28F

04/08 09:03, , 29F
有個3分球 可以10/22 也可以1/13的隊友JR
04/08 09:03, 29F

04/08 09:04, , 30F
天空貝是PG第三名耶 XDDDD
04/08 09:04, 30F

04/08 09:07, , 31F
美國真的太猛了,運動就是要看數據!!!給推
04/08 09:07, 31F

04/08 09:46, , 32F
防守最高為TD
04/08 09:46, 32F

04/08 09:57, , 33F
413 Kyrie Irving, PG DRPM -3.22
04/08 09:57, 33F

04/08 10:01, , 34F
TD:誰說養生就不能防守?
04/08 10:01, 34F

04/08 10:11, , 35F
怎麼讓我想到資料探勘XDDD
04/08 10:11, 35F

04/08 10:13, , 36F
完了 ESPN數據顯示我鬍防守排名390/435 ..........
04/08 10:13, 36F

04/08 10:14, , 37F
我發現我被數據大師騙了好幾個月........
04/08 10:14, 37F

04/08 10:14, , 38F
我盧真的很不錯
04/08 10:14, 38F

04/08 10:20, , 39F
文章內我鬍的RPM是4.33,可是網頁內卻是-2.44
04/08 10:20, 39F

04/08 10:20, , 40F
我鬍防守是經過認證的!(?)
04/08 10:20, 40F

04/08 10:22, , 41F
-2.44是防守DRPM 數據大師認為對我鬍不利 數據不準
04/08 10:22, 41F

04/08 10:22, , 42F
在此我也呼籲大家不要挑喜歡的數據看 ESPN的看看就好
04/08 10:22, 42F

04/08 10:23, , 43F
這數據喪心病狂了 XD 依照這數據, PB的進攻比 TP好
04/08 10:23, 43F

04/08 10:23, , 44F
數據會顯示我鬍防守(監視器 撈球)整體沒有傷害到球隊
04/08 10:23, 44F

04/08 10:25, , 45F
比 KI好, 比 John Wall好... 比 Rondo好 冏
04/08 10:25, 45F

04/08 10:26, , 46F
然後 Bledsoe在進攻方面是負影響 !?... 不可思議
04/08 10:26, 46F

04/08 10:29, , 47F
erotica真的心靈受傷很重...XD
04/08 10:29, 47F

04/08 10:30, , 48F
還是等賽季末看 xRAPM吧 ...
04/08 10:30, 48F

04/08 10:31, , 49F
對對對,我少了一個DRPM sorry ~"~
04/08 10:31, 49F

04/08 10:40, , 50F
很有意思的數據..
04/08 10:40, 50F

04/08 10:42, , 51F
04/08 10:42, 51F

04/08 10:53, , 52F
這數據貌似可以析出菜鳥鎖和老鳥鎖來
04/08 10:53, 52F

04/08 10:55, , 53F
菜鳥鎖像J.Butler K.leonard Shumpert最多都不超2
04/08 10:55, 53F

04/08 10:57, , 54F
有防守的老鳥起碼都2 3起跳
04/08 10:57, 54F

04/08 11:03, , 55F
這什麼數據阿...天空貝比鬍子跟DH還高...
04/08 11:03, 55F

04/08 11:17, , 56F
還好我去隊版看了一下 很快就復原受傷了
04/08 11:17, 56F

04/08 11:49, , 57F
LBJ 8.11 >>> KD 6.77 LBJ天下第一人位置還是很穩
04/08 11:49, 57F

04/08 11:50, , 58F
TD 8!!
04/08 11:50, 58F

04/08 11:50, , 59F
Manu 9!!
04/08 11:50, 59F

04/08 12:02, , 60F
這計算公式應該相當複雜吧
04/08 12:02, 60F

04/08 12:08, , 61F
LAODA進攻 +3.49 !!! 再鐵也是前段班
04/08 12:08, 61F

04/08 12:23, , 62F
賣鞋哥進攻+2.86 !!! 再鐵也是前段班
04/08 12:23, 62F
AhUtopian:轉錄至看板 ChicagoBulls 04/08 12:27

04/08 12:28, , 63F
借轉公牛!
04/08 12:28, 63F

04/08 13:30, , 64F
rubio 3.90 barea -2.97
04/08 13:30, 64F

04/08 14:03, , 65F
鬍子 ORPM 5.88 DRPM- 2.44 RPM 3.44 BJ4
04/08 14:03, 65F

04/08 14:05, , 66F
DRPM 魔獸7th 4.87 阿西8th 4.55 差不多
04/08 14:05, 66F

04/08 14:08, , 67F
KL居然是馬刺先發中最低的0_o...
04/08 14:08, 67F

04/08 14:43, , 68F
我盧真的讚QQ
04/08 14:43, 68F

04/08 15:39, , 69F
這數據對於弱隊刷數據的就很殘忍 但是在強隊還很低的
04/08 15:39, 69F

04/08 15:39, , 70F
就可能代表真的有某些環節問題很大
04/08 15:39, 70F

04/08 16:08, , 71F
這感覺跟棒球的WAR有點像耶
04/08 16:08, 71F

04/08 16:51, , 72F
這個算法應該比一般的純+/-要嚴格了
04/08 16:51, 72F

04/08 17:38, , 73F
提一個人,直覺Al ORPM會很高,卻看不到他排前40
04/08 17:38, 73F

04/08 17:43, , 74F
Al ORPM才0.89 這計算真的很不利內線
04/08 17:43, 74F

04/08 19:32, , 75F
04/08 19:32, 75F

04/08 19:50, , 76F
老魚防守+2.35 這還準嗎
04/08 19:50, 76F

04/08 20:06, , 77F
樓上這一提出來這數據可信度突然降低不少XD 其實還是
04/08 20:06, 77F

04/08 20:06, , 78F
在於如何解讀
04/08 20:06, 78F

04/08 22:38, , 79F
這個數據再怎麼樣都會受到隊友影響的 不可能全校正
04/08 22:38, 79F

04/08 23:06, , 80F
DRPM 鬍子-2.44, Lin 0.41, 天空貝 1.42... 科科
04/08 23:06, 80F
文章代碼(AID): #1JGoyy6T (NBA)
文章代碼(AID): #1JGoyy6T (NBA)