[轉錄][外絮] 關於Kobe關鍵時刻表現的迷思

看板Lakers作者 (frost)時間13年前 (2011/01/29 06:52), 編輯推噓17(17022)
留言39則, 22人參與, 5年前最新討論串1/5 (看更多)
※ [本文轉錄自 NBA 看板 #1DGohkLk ] 作者: kart (=\) 看板: NBA 標題: [外絮] 關於Kobe關鍵時刻表現的迷思 時間: Sat Jan 29 04:45:32 2011 類似的文章不少,作者自己也提了,不過這篇文章比較特別的是... 他列出了比較負面的例子... @@ The truth about Kobe Bryant in crunch time By Henry Abbott/ESPN 關於Kobe在關鍵時刻的真相。 ESPN亨利阿伯 撰寫 At the end of Game 2 of the 2009 Finals, the Magic knew who to guard, and got the block. 在2009冠軍賽第二場關鍵時刻,魔術知道要防守誰 也成功的蓋了「他」火鍋。 Ask pundits. Ask general managers. Ask players. Ask almost anybody. Who would like to have take the last shot with the game on the line? 問任何跟NBA有關的人最後一擊要給誰? Kobe Bryant wins by a country mile. Every time. (In a general manager poll this season, he earned 79% of the vote, his ninth consecutive blowout.) Kobe幾乎每次都在類似投票中大幅度領先(本季對個球隊經理的調查, 他以高達79%的比例連續九年獲得壓倒性勝利。) There is not really any other serious candidate. 幾乎沒有人能在這項投票中望其項背。 Ask me, though, (as Ryen Russillo did last week and Mike Trudell the other day) and I'll tell you I don't know who's the best, but with all due respect to Bryant's amazing abilities scoring the ball, there's zero chance he's the king of crunch time. 如果你要問我(或是之前有在注意關鍵時刻的專業球評),那 我會跟你說我不知道誰是最好的,我也非常尊敬Kobe驚人的得分能力, 但是他百分之百不是(0%)關鍵時刻的王者。 The sin of predictability 觀察一:可預測性 Bryant makes crunch time defense easy for opponents by shooting just about every time he touches the ball (over a five-year period, he mustered 56 clutch shots, to go with one assist). Kobe的可預測性在於他幾乎一碰到球就一定要射, 讓關鍵時刻對手對他的防守相對簡單許多。 (過去五年中關鍵時刻中他總共投了56球,只有一個助攻) Fans of his raw machismo howl that such criticism misses the point, but the point is that when Bryant gets the ball in crunch time, it's a virtual certainty that he'll shoot it, and it's better than two-to-one odds that he'll miss. 很多kobe迷喜歡嚎叫說批評者搞不清楚狀況。 但是重點是kobe在關鍵時刻幾乎肯定一拿到球他就一定要出手, 而且有遠大於50%的機會他會投失。 In 1997, he famously airballed two shots that could have beat the Jazz -- instead the Jazz won the series. In 1999, he whiffed on a 3-pointer at the buzzer that would have tied Game 2 against the Spurs. In Game 4 against the Kings in 2002, he missed a 2-pointer that would have tied the game (before the ball was tipped out to Robert Horry for the winning 3). In Game 7 of that same series, Bryant missed a tip that would have won the game in regulation. In Game 3 against the Timberwolves in 2003, he missed two key shots in the last seconds of overtime, and the Lakers lost. 1997年,他季後賽對爵士有名的投了兩顆籃外空心,而這兩顆如果進了 都有可能獲勝。結果是爵士把湖人橫掃。 1999年,他在季後賽第二場對馬刺投失一棵可能追平的三分。 2002年第四戰對上國王,他投失了一個可追平的兩分球(雖然結果 球彈到威爾史密斯手上投進致勝三分) 在第七戰時Kobe一個補籃不進,否則可以不用打延長賽。 2003年第三戰對上灰狼,他最後連續投失了兩球導致輸球。 I'll spare you the entire list, but it's long. In the final 24 seconds of playoff games, Bryant has racked up almost as many airballs as makes, making just below 30 percent of game-tying or go-ahead shots. He hasn't hit such a shot in a playoff game, in fact, since 2008, including key misses in the closing moments against the Jazz and Magic in 2009, and the Thunder and Suns last spring. He made one of his four shots in the fourth quarter of Game 7 of last year's Finals. 舉凡種種,不甚枚舉,我也不想統統列出來給你們看, 只能說名單很長很可怕。 但是在季後賽裡,最後24秒進攻中的Kobe投進的球跟他投出的籃外空心 差不多一樣多,總計命中率不到30%。 事實上,自從2008年以後他在季後賽就沒有在關鍵時刻投中過了,包括 2009年對上爵士和魔術,和2010年對上雷霆和太陽。 而他在去年的總冠軍賽第七場第四節只勉強投進一球。 No matter how you define crunch time -- from the last five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime to the last 24 seconds -- and no matter how you define production -- field goal percentage, offensive efficiency, David Berri's Wins Produced, the results tell the same story: Bryant is about as likely to hit the big shot as any player. 不管你怎樣定義關鍵時刻--常規賽最後五分鐘和延長賽,或是只算最後 24秒-- 也不管你要怎麼計算一個球員的貢獻--命中率,攻擊效率, 帶來的勝場精算等等,結果通常只有一個:Kobe關鍵時刻的表現很一般, 跟一般球員沒啥兩樣。 ESPN Stats and Information's Alok Pattani dug through 15 years of NBA data (see table below) -- Bryant's entire career, regular season and playoffs -- and found that Bryant has attempted 115 shots in the final 24 seconds of a game in which the Lakers were tied or trailed by two or fewer points. He connected on 36, and missed 79 times. 根據我們ESPN的統計,過去15年來(請看下表),也就是Kobe的全部生涯 在內,包括所有季賽和季後賽,Kobe在最後24秒球隊落後或平手的局面 他總共投了115顆,進了36顆,投失了79顆。 One shot for all the cookies. And the NBA is nearly unanimous that this is the guy to take it, even though he has more than twice as many misses as makes? 怕了吧,所有NBA一致舉手通過要給他投最後一擊的人,即使他有超過 兩倍的機率投失多於投進,竟然表現如斯 His crunch time production is slightly higher in the first half of this season, but still certainly not the best in the league. And analyzing any large number of games, one year, five years or fifteen years, and defining crunch time a number of different ways, shows the same pattern. (There are a many ways this has been sliced.) 他今年這方面的表現比他的平均值好一點點,但是顯然跟最好差很多。 重點是不管你怎麼分析--只算某年,只算某五年,或算上過去15年, 結果還是一樣的。 Bryant shoots more than most, passes less, and racks up misses at an all-time rate. There is no measure, other than YouTube highlights and folklore, by which he's the best scorer in crunch time. Kobe關鍵時刻出手比是最高的,傳球非常稀有,而且投失球數正在往 史上新高邁進。所有統計都顯示,除了Youtube和高光以外,他絕對 不是關鍵時刻最好的得分手。 以下是從96-97年開始統計,在24秒內,球隊落後0-2分時,球員出手表現 (包括季賽和季後賽,出手數超過30次以上) Player Makes Attempts FG% Carmelo Anthony 21 44 47.7 Chris Paul 14 31 45.2 Shawn Marion 12 30 40 Brandon Roy 12 30 40 Hedo Turkoglu 12 30 40 Rashard Lewis 18 46 39.1 Glenn Robinson 14 36 38.9 Deron Williams 14 36 38.9 Mike Bibby 15 39 38.5 Dirk Nowitzki 25 65 38.5 Jalen Rose 12 32 37.5 Tim Duncan 23 62 37.1 Eddie Jones 13 36 36.1 Karl Malone 11 31 35.5 Ben Gordon 17 49 34.7 Chris Webber 18 52 34.6 Raymond Felton 12 36 33.3 LeBron James 23 69 33.3 Ray Allen 23 70 32.9 Gilbert Arenas 13 40 32.5 Vince Carter 31 96 32.3 Steve Francis 14 44 31.8 Damon Stoudamire12 38 31.6 Nick Van Exel 16 51 31.4 Kobe Bryant 36 115 31.3 Jason Terry 14 45 31.1 Allen Iverson 21 68 30.9 Kevin Garnett 22 72 30.6 Ron Artest 9 30 30 Allan Houston 12 41 29.3 Entire league 2038 6861 29.7 The un-clutch Lakers 觀察二:關鍵時刻讓湖人無法發揮 One of the key arguments in his favor is that he draws double-teams, which allows other Lakers to score. But that doesn't seem to happen much. Over Bryant's 15-year career, the Lakers have had the NBA's best offense, and second-best won-loss record. No other team can match their mighty 109 points per 100 possessions over the entire period. kobe迷常常爭論說Kobe屌的就是他關鍵時刻能吸引包夾,這樣其他人 不是就有機會了嘛。但是不幸的是,這個現象並沒有發生太多。 在Kobe 15年的生涯之中,湖人隊是這15年以來全NBA攻擊最好的球隊, 而且擁有第二高的輸贏比。沒有任何一隊可以接近他們的進攻效率 (每100次進攻能得109分) You'd expect Los Angeles to also have one of the league's best offenses in crunch time, right? Especially with the ball in the hands of the player most suited to those moments. 在這麼顯眼的數字下你會期待照理來說湖人隊在關鍵時刻 表現應該也不俗,對嘛?尤其是還有公認關鍵時刻最強的 人在隊上不是嘛? That's not what happens, though. In the final 24 seconds of close games the Laker offense regresses horribly, managing just 82 points per 100 possessions. And it's not a simple case of every team having a hard time scoring in crunch time. Over Bryant's career, 11 teams have had better crunch time offenses, led by the Hornets with a shocking 107 points per 100 possessions in crunch time, a huge credit to Chris Paul. 但是這並沒有如人們想像般發生。 事實上,如果只看關鍵時刻的24秒,湖人隊的進攻效率下降到 爛透了的每100次進攻才有82分的效率。而且這並不是因為關鍵 時刻通常任何NBA球隊都表現不好,在kobe的生涯中(15年來), 有11隊比湖人隊在關鍵時刻都有效率,最有效率的是黃蜂隊, 關鍵時刻每100次進攻可以得107分,這要感謝CP3的強力加持。 The Lakers are not among the league leaders in crunch time offense -- instead they're just about average, scoring 82.35 points per 100 possessions in a league that averages 80.03. They are, however, among the league leaders in how much worse their offense declines in crunch time. 上面說了湖人隊並不是關鍵時刻進攻最好的球隊,只在平均值 (每100次進攻得80分)。 不過他們在平常進攻效率和關鍵時刻進攻效率的差值倒是全聯盟最大的。 (109分下降到82分!) When Bryant is on the floor in crunch time, Bryant's Lakers are actually outscored by their opponents. 之前有文章提過當Kobe關鍵時刻在場上時,湖人其實得分是輸給 對手的。(+/-值是負值) A great offensive team performing at average levels, with a star setting records for number of shots attempted. Teammates left wide open. Evidence, even, that Bryant's play puts his team into nailbiters that needn't be so close. 一個強大進攻效率的球隊,到了關鍵時刻表現平平,隊中有一個 球星不斷創造投球數的紀錄。而隊友通常都是有大空檔。 這些都是Kobe讓他所處的球隊處於不利位置的證據。 That, my friends, is a ballhog. 我的讀者朋友們,這就叫做自幹王。 (文章好長,先翻一半,下半段待續....) -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 72.34.128.249

01/29 04:47,
竟敢發對KB不利的文章? 你得到的噓會比上一篇多!
01/29 04:47

01/29 04:48,
這倒是真的 最後24秒球給LBJ好多了
01/29 04:48
※ 編輯: kart 來自: 72.34.128.249 (01/29 04:50)

01/29 04:49,
看他在丹佛的表現就知道了
01/29 04:49

01/29 04:51,
關鍵時刻還是LBJ比較好 不信去問巫師
01/29 04:51

01/29 04:52,
早!
01/29 04:52

01/29 04:53,
這是今天ESPN/NBA的頭條,只是翻譯而已
01/29 04:53

01/29 04:56,
去年才發生過什麼事 今年大家就忘了 科科
01/29 04:56

01/29 05:15,
我的作者朋友 請告訴我一支關鍵時刻表現這麼爛的球隊
01/29 05:15

01/29 05:15,
是怎麼在過去3年都打進冠軍戰 並抱走2個金盃?
01/29 05:15

01/29 05:16,
所謂科學 是建立可行的模型來描述現實
01/29 05:16

01/29 05:17,
而數據派拼命的用加權過後數據告訴我們已發生的現實
01/29 05:17

01/29 05:17,
是不可信的?
01/29 05:17

01/29 05:21,
好文推 三樓真弱
01/29 05:21

01/29 05:35,
原來要打倒Kobe,除了球技上外,還要聯合美國專欄作家
01/29 05:35

01/29 05:35,
+台灣翻譯家來打...
01/29 05:35

01/29 05:37,
我覺得不難懂啊,這篇文有提到這15年來的湖人隊是全
01/29 05:37

01/29 05:38,
全NBA攻擊最好的球隊,還有第二高的輸贏比,但這和作
01/29 05:38

01/29 05:38,
者一開始提的關鍵時刻表現,有絕對的正比關係嗎?
01/29 05:38

01/29 05:39,
胡扯一堆,Kobe是不能用數據說明他的偉大的
01/29 05:39

01/29 05:40,
可是湖人隊在平常時刻的效率卻笑傲聯盟啊
01/29 05:40

01/29 05:40,
進攻
01/29 05:40

01/29 05:46,
所以結論是Kobe是拖油瓶、沒有Kobe湖人會更好。我想
01/29 05:46

01/29 05:47,
知道作者那這件事去跟NBA 30位教練+GM討論,到底有多
01/29 05:47

01/29 05:47,
單以這篇文來說,我是不認為這樣就能得出樓上結論啦
01/29 05:47

01/29 05:48,
少人會信他Orz。如果他能說服NBA教練跟GM的話,我就
01/29 05:48

01/29 05:48,
只能說湖人隊關鍵時刻的選擇方式不好,科科科
01/29 05:48

01/29 05:48,
相信他..XD,寫這種文章就是要拼點擊數啊。反KB會點
01/29 05:48

01/29 05:49,
、喜歡KB的更會點,這才是記者拼業績的最高境界...
01/29 05:49

01/29 05:52,
這麼早就要戰了嗎
01/29 05:52

01/29 05:55,
Solid4的意思是這篇文章的翻譯家也到最高境界了嗎???
01/29 05:55

01/29 06:04,
數據又不代表一切
01/29 06:04

01/29 06:05,
命中率很重要嗎?
01/29 06:05

01/29 06:05,
老大在關鍵時刻的命中數明明就是最多的
01/29 06:05

01/29 06:06,
專業科迷回答↑
01/29 06:06

01/29 06:07,
講了那麼多 你敢放掉KOBE?
01/29 06:07

01/29 06:07,
有些人還會DOBLE TEAM 咧
01/29 06:07

01/29 06:07,
melo命中率最高又怎樣? 他得過81分嗎?
01/29 06:07

01/29 06:08,
不傳球又怎樣? 老大就是屌 就是要出手 怎樣?
01/29 06:08

01/29 06:09,
怎麼大家聽到81分就都不講話了
01/29 06:09

01/29 06:09,
他所謂關鍵時刻投不進.命中率差 是空檔? 還是2.3人包
01/29 06:09

01/29 06:09,
DOUBLE
01/29 06:09

01/29 06:10,
Kobe的確常常腦充血打得不聰明 不過他是很強的得分手
01/29 06:10

01/29 06:10,
他再關鍵時刻拿到球給對手的壓力絕對比一般球員要高
01/29 06:10

01/29 06:11,
是事實 當球隊進攻打不開或是進攻時間受限球常丟給他
01/29 06:11

01/29 06:12,
處理也是事實~ 他也從沒逃避過大家給他的責難與批評~
01/29 06:12

01/29 06:13,
他就是這樣的一個球員啊~ (是說最近打滿聰明的XDDD)
01/29 06:13

01/29 06:14,
cktmac真專業=.=
01/29 06:14

01/29 06:14,
自幹又怎樣? 你有得自幹嗎? 你有三千萬可拿嗎?
01/29 06:14

01/29 06:18,
最近打很好啊 這樣打下去 應該真的能三連霸吧 哈哈
01/29 06:18

01/29 06:26,
科比 不意外 XD
01/29 06:26

01/29 06:37,
這篇轉去該要以湖人團隊為主體的Lakers版會不會死掉?
01/29 06:37

01/29 06:40,
推翻譯...
01/29 06:40

01/29 06:51,
借轉湖人版
01/29 06:51
-- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 118.167.178.193

01/29 06:55, , 1F
感謝大大轉專業分析文提升我們湖人板的專業程度
01/29 06:55, 1F

01/29 07:27, , 2F
看到轉過來和一樓我就笑了XD
01/29 07:27, 2F

01/29 07:31, , 3F
一樓好噁~~希望對手都相信作者說的..不怕不要守~拜託!!
01/29 07:31, 3F

01/29 07:57, , 4F
數據真是嫩
01/29 07:57, 4F

01/29 08:06, , 5F
每次看到總板拿著數據批評Kobe都感到非常欣慰 ^^
01/29 08:06, 5F

01/29 08:19, , 6F
科科....老科真弱啊~ 有種就不要包XDD
01/29 08:19, 6F

01/29 08:33, , 7F
科科
01/29 08:33, 7F

01/29 08:43, , 8F
對其他各隊來說 關鍵一定都KB投真的很好守 傳投要拿捏囉
01/29 08:43, 8F

01/29 09:08, , 9F
原PO跟一樓都是反串 不意外拉
01/29 09:08, 9F

01/29 09:26, , 10F
好守會讓他投進這麼多豪洨球? 最好都別守 拜託 他很嫩的
01/29 09:26, 10F

01/29 09:43, , 11F
so what ? we got champion"s" .
01/29 09:43, 11F

01/29 09:56, , 12F
很簡單 Kobe關鍵時刻命中率和強打者打擊率差不多
01/29 09:56, 12F

01/29 09:57, , 13F
問題是投手敢不敢把球投進好球帶讓他打
01/29 09:57, 13F

01/29 10:23, , 14F
這是湖人的勝利 拿湖人奪冠是要幫Kobe打法證明什麼?
01/29 10:23, 14F

01/29 10:25, , 15F
你把槍西哥的數據拿出來看看阿 號稱大心臟 過去五年3/27
01/29 10:25, 15F

01/29 10:26, , 16F
有人會專題寫他嗎?不 那一點也無法吸引讀者
01/29 10:26, 16F

01/29 10:27, , 17F
胡人奪冠是要證明這隻球隊沒有什麼問題~尤其是帶頭老大
01/29 10:27, 17F

01/29 10:28, , 18F
如果主力得分點問題超大是不可能奪冠的~
01/29 10:28, 18F

01/29 10:28, , 19F
更別提問題不大也很難奪冠的其他許多球隊~
01/29 10:28, 19F

01/29 10:42, , 20F
總之一句話 妓者跟酸民都是MJ級的 當然說的一嘴好球
01/29 10:42, 20F

01/29 10:43, , 21F
另外 他們數學也背得不錯 只是對Kobe正面的都會省略
01/29 10:43, 21F

01/29 11:08, , 22F
討論湖人打法怎會出現槍西? @@a
01/29 11:08, 22F

01/29 11:09, , 23F
我在某版講過了 馬刺超賽+最近幾場的湖人 進攻成熟度是聯
01/29 11:09, 23F

01/29 11:16, , 24F
只看數據稱不上專業 看的到整體才知道Kobe的絕殺是能扭轉
01/29 11:16, 24F

01/29 11:17, , 25F
生與死的程度 而絕殺令人深刻的 也只有Kobe跟Mj的數量足以
01/29 11:17, 25F

01/29 11:19, , 26F
讓人難以忘懷 NBA得教練也曾票選過最後一投會給誰 Kobe
01/29 11:19, 26F

01/29 11:19, , 27F
當仁不讓是第一名 這點完全不需質疑
01/29 11:19, 27F

01/29 11:35, , 28F
這個投票高的原因也只是因為KOBE有任何角度出手的能力
01/29 11:35, 28F

01/29 11:36, , 29F
命中率低 理所當然 全世界都知道KOBE要投 能輕鬆出手?
01/29 11:36, 29F

01/29 12:47, , 30F
去年對太陽g6這麼快就忘了喔 科科~
01/29 12:47, 30F

01/29 13:47, , 31F
講那麼多 關鍵時刻歡迎就放KOBE投 不要包阿
01/29 13:47, 31F

01/29 16:08, , 32F
真的看完整篇 最好都不要包 反正投不進 廢文....
01/29 16:08, 32F

01/29 16:14, , 33F
KOBE的確就是大家都知道他會投 湖人也知道 SO WHAT?
01/29 16:14, 33F

01/29 22:44, , 34F
樓上......所以更要包阿
01/29 22:44, 34F

01/30 11:42, , 35F
推這篇
01/30 11:42, 35F

08/08 13:16, , 36F
自幹又怎樣? 你有得 https://muxiv.com
08/08 13:16, 36F

09/11 02:28, , 37F
只能說湖人隊關鍵時刻的 https://daxiv.com
09/11 02:28, 37F

09/11 05:04, , 38F
科科....老科真弱啊 https://daxiv.com
09/11 05:04, 38F

12/11 19:56, 5年前 , 39F
真的看完整篇 最好都不 https://noxiv.com
12/11 19:56, 39F
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