Re: [討論] 數學家畢達哥拉斯竟然也相信輪迴....

看板Buddhism作者Tyler0914 (Project Mayhem)時間3年前 (2021/05/01 07:07)推噓14(14推 0噓 0→)

留言14則, 12人參與討論串2/3 (看更多)

※ 引述《musashi0839 (常山七次郎)》之銘言： : 畢達哥拉斯 : 小時候只有在學畢氏定理的時候聽過他 : 今天在書店翻閱一本書有提到他 : "畢達哥拉斯學派提供了一種很有影響力的設想。這個神祕的傳統相信有死後的人生，而且 : 死亡只是通往另一種人生的途徑。畢達哥拉斯的追隨者，包含柏拉圖在內，都相信靈魂轉 : 世：那些死亡的個體其實正要踏上一場長達三千年的旅程。他（或她）不朽的靈魂──就 : 某種意義而言就是這個人的同一性（identity of the person）──將會在「大地、海洋 : 、天空」的各種生物間一一輪迴變換，直到再度進入某個軀體成為人類。 : 據說，畢達哥拉斯自稱某次在路上看到一隻遭人鞭打的小狗，他心生憐憫，大喊：「停手 : ！別打了，牠體內的靈魂就是我的某位好朋友，我聽到牠的叫聲就認出來了。」另一則神 : 話描述的是他一開始是身為歐福爾布斯（Euphorbus），接著是赫爾墨提姆斯（ : Hermotimus）。身為赫爾墨提姆斯的他決定證明靈魂轉世，於是他進入了一間神廟，正確 : 辨識出一面盾牌的舊時擁有者，儘管這面盾牌已經腐朽不堪了。他在身為赫爾墨提姆斯之 : 後是成為一名漁夫裴魯斯（Pyrrhus），然後才是畢達哥拉斯。" : (節錄自<如果柏拉圖也有Podcast：20位古希臘哲學家給現代人的生活思辨) : 而且我查了一下 : 畢達哥拉斯的出生年分跟佛陀很接近但一個在希臘另一在尼泊爾 : 畢達哥拉斯應該是不太可能有機會聽聞佛法 : 但是這種巧合讓我覺得很不可思議 : 更何況還是一個數學家數學著重證明 : 但所謂輪迴這種事卻是難以證明的 : 一位數學家竟然如此篤定說出口 : 總覺得好奇妙剛好27年前在唸外文系的時候奧維德(Ovid)的拉丁史詩《變形記(Metamorphoses)》是必修課程裡的內容之一，第15章《畢達哥拉斯的教導(The Teachings of Pythagoras)》就在講這個，有興趣的可以去找《Metamorphoses》來看。(是不建議啦，佛經都看不完了，有那麼多空閒時間還不如多讀讀佛經，人間糟粕書少看) 由於當時用的教科書是英譯本的，這邊就大略摘錄幾段翻譯一下： There was a man here, Samian born, but he Had fled from Samos , for he hated tyrants And chose, instead, an exile's lot. His thought Reached far aloft, to the great gods in Heaven, And his imagination looked on visions Beyond his mortal sight. All things he studied With watchful eager mind, and he brought home What he had learned and sat among the people (有個薩摩斯人因為厭惡暴君而逃離薩摩斯，甘願流亡異鄉。他能和遙遠天界的諸神靈犀相通。他的靈視能看見肉眼所無法看見的。他把自己苦心求來的知識帶回家鄉與大眾分享。) ↑薩摩斯人講的就是古希臘人畢達哥拉斯(Pythagoras of Samos) 他是有流亡異鄉過，所以說不定還真的去過印度。畢竟西元前1200年雅利安人入侵印度，與當地土著達羅毗荼人（Dravidian）衝突，歷經6個世紀的戰爭，雅利安人趕走達羅毗荼人，留下的達羅毗荼人成為雅利安人奴隸，作為種姓制度的最底層。一部份的亞利安人後來又從印度向西經過北非的埃及、再遷徙回歐洲，變成吉普賽人。連亞歷山大大帝都於西元前326年遠征印度。所以別太小看上古時代歐洲人的「流動性」。 ……all the secrets hidden From man's imperfect knowledge. He was first To say that animal food should not be eaten, And learnèd as he was, men did not always Believe him when he preached (人有所不知的各種奧秘都是他探討的課題。他是第一個提倡不該以動物為食的人，雖然言者諄諄聽者藐藐。) ↑這裡奧維德寫道，畢達哥拉斯是歐洲最早提倡素食的人，至於為何畢達哥拉斯要提倡素食，以下開始就是畢達哥拉斯的教學內容↓ “Forbear, O mortals, To spoil your bodies with such impious food! There is corn for you, apples, whose weight bears down The bending branches; there are grapes that swell On the green vines, and pleasant herbs, and greens Made mellow and soft with cooking; there is milk And clover-honey. Earth is generous With her provision, and her sustenance Is very kind; she offers, for your tables, Food that requires no bloodshed and no slaughter. Meat is for beasts to feed on, yet not all Are carnivores, for horses, sheep, and cattle Subsist on grass, but those whose disposition Is fierce and cruel, tigers, raging lions, And bears and wolves delight in bloody feasting. Oh, what a wicked thing it is for flesh To be the tomb of flesh, for the body's craving To fatten on the body of another, For one live creature to continue living Through one live creature's death. In all the richness That Earth, the best of mothers, tenders to us, Does nothing please except to chew and mangle The flesh of slaughtered animals? The Cyclops Could do no worse! Must you destroy another To satiate your greedy-gutted cravings? (『凡人啊，你們要自制，別用不潔的食物污染你們的身體！明明就有五穀雜糧可以吃，樹枝上有結實累累的蘋果，蔓藤上有紅裡透紫的葡萄。還有芬芳多汁的草本植物，稍一烹調就鮮美可口。也不是沒有奶或香氣遠播的蜂蜜。大地豐饒富足，源源不絕供應食物，根本沒必要流血屠宰。只有野獸才需要肉類來充飢，而且還不是所有動物都是肉食性動物，因為馬、羊、牛都是吃草維生，只有野性未馴的才吃肉，老虎、猛獅、熊、狼都喜歡帶血的食物。一團肉變成另一團肉的葬身之處、一個貪婪的身體吃下另一個身體把自己養胖，靠著其他生靈的死亡來延續自己的生命，噢，這真是罪過啊！富足的大地之母生生不息滋養我們，你們卻還殘殺動物、大口咀嚼他們的肉，效法獨眼巨人那種令人髮指的行徑！難道你們只能靠毀滅別的生命來安撫自己貪得無厭的口腹之慾？) ↑「獨眼巨人」就是荷馬史詩《奧德賽》當中的獨眼巨人Cyclops，食人為生。 There was a time, the Golden Age, we call it, Happy in fruits and herbs, when no men tainted Their lips with blood, and birds went flying safely Through air, and in the fields the rabbits wandered Unfrightened, and no little fish was ever Hooked by its own credulity: all things Were free from treachery and fear and cunning, And all was peaceful. But some innovator, A good-for-nothing, whoever he was, decided, In envy, that what lions ate was better, Stuffed meat into his belly like a furnace, And paved the way for crime. It may have been That steel was warmed and dyed with blood through killing Dangerous beasts, and that could be forgiven On grounds of self-defense; to kill wild beasts Is lawful, but they never should be eaten. (在我們稱之為『黃金年代』的時期充滿了果實鮮蔬，那時沒有人會讓血跡玷污自己的嘴唇，空中的飛鳥都很安全，兔子在野外左蹦右跳也都無憂無慮，魚也不致於因為自己的純樸好騙而中計上鉤，天地蒼生都不必擔心詭計陷阱，世間沒有詐欺，只有和平。偏偏就是有人開了惡例，始作俑者已經不可考，他羨慕獅子的食物，有樣學樣把肉囫圇吞下肚，由此開啟了邪惡之門。也許剛開始殺的都是些猛獸，溫血染紅刀刃被認為是正當的，猛獸危及我們的性命，所以殺生以求自保也是情有可緣。但是並不代表我們該吃他們的肉。) ↑這裡開始畢達哥拉斯開始講述歐洲人認知的上古時代4個不同時期：黃金年代、白銀年代、青銅年代、(對，就是《聖鬥士星矢》裡黃金聖鬥士、白銀聖鬥士、青銅聖鬥士那種分階概念，這是當時歐洲普遍對上古世紀年代演進的劃分方式)以及黑鐵年代，篇幅超長的就不全譯了。 ↓以下開始就是畢達哥拉斯講述為何要提倡素食的理由：因為有「輪迴」今天吃動物、改天自己投胎作動物就被別人吃 “O mortals, Dumb in cold fear of death, why do you tremble At Stygian rivers, shadows, empty names, The lying stock of poets, and the terrors Of a false world? I tell you that your bodies Can never suffer evil, whether fire Consumes them, or the waste of time. Our souls Are deathless; always, when they leave our bodies, They find new dwelling-places. I myself, I well remember, in the Trojan War Was Panthous' son, Euphorbus, and my breast Once knew the heavy spear of Menelaus. Not long ago, in Argos, Abas' city, In Juno's temple, I saw the shield I carried On my left arm. All things are always changing, But nothing dies. The spirit comes and goes, Is housed wherever it wills, shifts residence From beasts to men, from men to beasts, but always It keeps on living. As the pliant wax Is stamped with new designs, and is no longer What once it was, but changes form, and still Is pliant wax, so do I teach that spirit Is evermore the same, though passing always To ever-changing bodies. So I warn you, Lest appetite murder brotherhood, I warn you By all the priesthood in me, do not exile What may be kindred souls by evil slaughter. Blood should not nourish blood. (『凡人呀，死亡讓你們嚇得魂不守舍，你們為什麼害怕冥河與鬼魂這類空洞的名詞呢？那不過只是詩人憑空杜撰的名堂，子虛烏有不值識者一哂。你們的肉身不管是柴堆火化或土葬後，隨時光而腐朽，根本不會再受痛苦。我們的靈魂不會死亡，只是搬離舊家、再另覓新居而已。我自己清楚記得在特洛伊戰爭裡，我是潘托俄斯的兒子優弗玻斯，胸膛被梅內勞斯的長矛刺穿。不久前，我才在阿巴斯的亞果城朱諾神廟裡認出我前世曾拿在左手的那面盾牌！世事皆無常多變，沒有東西會真的死。靈魂來來去去，隨興寄居在各式軀殼裡，不是從獸體移居人體、就是從人體移居獸體，就是從不消亡。就像軟蠟蓋上新印章，只是換個圖樣而已。改變的只有外在形體，本質仍然是軟蠟，我所教的就是這個道理，靈魂的本質始終不變，只是一直不停更換軀體而已。因此我必須警告各位，別為了口腹之慾而謀殺自己的兄弟，我以教士的身分告誡各位，別用邪惡的屠殺來驅趕你親屬的靈魂，別以血養血。) ↑這裡就提到，畢達哥拉斯他有「前世記憶」，記得自己參加過發生在西元前1260～1240年間的「特洛伊戰爭」被人用長矛穿胸而亡，所以畢達哥拉斯深信人不該吃肉，並把吃肉描述成「以血養血」的惡行。然後畢達哥拉斯講述萬物變遷的「無常」之理，篇幅又好長一大段，相信各位佛版的大德們早已對「無常」之理耳熟能詳，就無須全錄。簡短節錄最後幾部分： Our bodies also change. What we have been, What we now are, we shall not be tomorrow. There was a time when we were only seed, Only the hope of men, housed in the womb, Where Nature shaped us, brought us forth, exposed us To the void air, and there in light we lay, Feeble and infant, and were quadrupeds Before too long, and after a little wobbled And pulled ourselves upright, holding a chair, The side of the crib, and strength grew into us, And swiftness; youth and middle age went swiftly Down the long hill toward age, and all our vigor Came to decline, so Milon, the old wrestler, Weeps when he sees his arms whose bulging muscles Were once like Hercules', and Helen weeps To see her wrinkles in the looking glass: Could this old woman ever have been ravished, Taken twice over? Time devours all things With envious Age, together. The slow gnawing Consumes all things, and very, very slowly. Not even the so-called elements are constant. Listen, and I will tell you of their changes. There are four of them, and two, the earth and water, Are heavy, and their own weight bears them downward, And two, the air and fire (and fire is purer Even than air) are light, rise upward If nothing holds them down. These elements Are separate in space, yet all things come From them and into them, and they can change Into each other. Earth can be dissolved To flowing water, water can thin to air, And air can thin to fire, and fire can thicken To air again, and air condense to water, And water be compressed to solid earth. Nothing remains the same: the great renewer, Nature, makes form from form, and, oh, believe me That nothing ever dies. What we call birth Is the beginning of a difference, No more than that, and death is only ceasing Of what had been before. The parts may vary, Shifting from here to there, hither and yon, And back again, but the great sum is constant. Nothing, I am convinced, can be the same Forever. There was once an Age of God, Later, an Age of Iron. Every place Submits to Fortune's wheel. I have seen oceans That once were solid land, and I have seen Lands made from ocean. Often sea-shells lie Far from the beach, and men have found old anchors On mountain-tops. Plateaus have turned to valleys, Hills washed away, marshes become dry desert, Deserts made pools. Here Nature brings forth fountains, There shuts them in; when the earth quakes, new rivers Are born and old ones sink and dry and vanish. Lycus, for instance, swallowed by the earth Emerges far away, a different stream (我們的肉身也是變動不息的。昨天的樣貌、當下的樣貌，都不同於明天的樣貌。我們都曾是居住在母親子宮裡的種子，造化巧施妙手，賦予我們形體、再把我們帶到天光之下。脆弱的嬰兒期，像獸類一般四腳爬地，然後漸漸能直立，扶床椅走路愈趨平穩。然後愈來愈有體力、身手日趨矯健；青年到中年時光飛逝如梭，就像直下漫長的坡道一樣直達老年，我們的活力也隨之走下坡，所以像米隆那樣的摔角手看到自己過去宛如海克力士般肌肉健壯的手臂如今鬆垂無力，也不禁潸然落淚。一代傾城美女海倫從鏡子裡看到臉上的皺紋也要流淚自問：怎麼會有男人兩度為爭奪這個老女人大動干戈？ ───海倫曾被裴修斯劫走，後來又被派瑞斯奪走，引發特洛伊戰爭─── 時光伴隨嫉妒的歲月吞噬了一切。兩者聯手啃蝕消磨萬物，一點一滴緩如凌遲。甚至連我們所謂的基本原素也並非恆久不變的。它們的變化且聽我道來。有四大元素，其中地與水是沉重的，它們本身的重量讓它們往下沉，另外兩樣，風與火（火又比風還清純一些）則是輕的，只要沒被往下拉，都會自然向上升。在太虛當中這四種元素是各自分離，世間萬物因它們和合而生，也因它們崩解分離而滅。四種元素卻又可以彼此互相轉變。土地可以分解液化成流水、水可以稀薄到變成氣體、氣體可以淡化成火、火勢濃重又可以再變成氣體，氣體凝結成水，水聚合凝固成為土。沒有任何東西可以保留原本的形態：大造是偉大的更新者，不斷把萬物從一種形態變成另一種形態，噢，相信我，在這當中沒有任何東西會真的死亡。我們所謂的誕生，只是開始變成跟既有的狀態不一樣，而死亡也只是既有狀態的終止。各種元素會變換，從這裡變到那裡，然後再不斷循環，但是所有元素總合起來的量始終不變。我確信任何東西都不可能長久維持相同的形貌。以前曾有黃金時代、繼之而起的是黑鐵時代，每個地方也都在命運輪轉中浮沉。我見過陸地變成海洋，也見過海洋變成陸地。常有貝殼散落在遠離海岸的地方，也有人在山頂上發現過古代的船錨。高原變成山谷，山丘被水沖走，沼澤變成旱地，旱漠變成水鄉澤國。大造在此讓清泉湧出，又封住另一邊的泉源；當大地震動，新的河流出現、舊河截流乾涸。比方像律科斯河被大地吞沒後，又在遠處以另一條河形貌出現。) ↑這裡畢達哥拉斯提到構成萬物的「地、水、火、風」四大元素，與佛家講的「四大」是一樣的，其實這就是上古時代亞利安人的普遍認知，亞利安人從歐洲帶去印度建立起的婆羅門教就承襲了這套「四大元素」的概念，然後佛教又延用了這套概念以便教導當時深受婆羅門教影響的印度人。 We must not wander far and wide, forgetting The goal of our discourse. Remember this: The heavens and all below them, earth and her creatures, All change, and we, part of creation, also Must suffer change. We are not bodies only, But wingèd spirits, with the power to enter Animal forms, house in the bodies of cattle. Therefore, we should respect those dwelling-places Which may have given shelter to the spirit Of fathers, brothers, cousins, human beings At least, and we should never do them damage, Not stuff ourselves like the cannibal Thyestes. An evil habit, impious preparation, Wicked as human bloodshed, to draw the knife Across the throat of the calf, and hear its anguish Cry to deaf ears! And who could slay The little goat whose cry is like a baby's. Or eat a bird he has himself just fed? One might as well do murder; he is only The shortest step away. Let the bull plow And let him owe his death to length of days; Let the sheep give you armor for rough weather, The she-goats bring full udders to the milking. Have done with nets and traps and snares and springs, Bird-lime and forest-beaters, lines and fish-hooks. Kill, if you must, the beasts that do you harm, But, even so, let killing be enough; Let appetite refrain from flesh, take only A gentler nourishment.” (扯遠了，言歸正傳。切記：天上天下，大地以及蒼生全都變動不息，而我們身為萬物的一部分，也必須遭遇各種變化。我們不只是肉身，同時也是長了翅膀的靈魂，有能力投生為動物的形體，住在家畜的身體裡。所以我們應該尊敬這些曾為我們父親、兄弟、表親、起碼人類的靈魂提供庇護的居所，怎樣都不該傷害牠們，不該像食人魔提耶斯那樣拿牠們來填塞自己。邪惡的因習，不敬的備膳方式，拿刀劃開牛的喉頭，對牠的哀鳴充耳不聞，這跟殺人見血一樣缺德！怎麼有人狠得下心殺死哀號聲像嬰兒一樣的山羊。或是吃掉剛親手餵哺過的小鳥？這跟謀殺已經沒有多大的差別了。就讓牛好好耕田，安享天年；讓綿羊提供你嚴寒時的禦寒衣料，讓母山羊可以好好供應羊奶。收掉羅網、圈套、陷阱、不要在樹枝塗鳥膠捕鳥、收掉魚鉤。只在有野獸要傷害你的必要時候才殺掉牠們，即便非殺不可，殺了也就夠了；在吃的方面戒掉肉食，用比較溫和的方式獲取身體所需的營養。』) ↑「食人魔提耶斯」指的是當年提耶斯與阿楚斯（Artreus）兄弟鬩牆，阿楚斯設陷害提耶斯吃到自己小孩的肉。所以再看到這類古希臘文學裡有與佛教思想類似的東西，別太意外，因為原本就是傳承自上古亞利安人共通的文化脈絡，甚至後來(西元前4世紀～西元前2世紀) 印度的「犍陀羅王朝」就是希臘人跑去印度建立的政權。留下許多犍陀羅王朝時期的佛教文物，當中佛、菩薩們的衣著全都是希臘式的長袍、腳下踩著的是希臘鞋。 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 118.167.77.62 (臺灣) ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Buddhism/M.1619824027.A.FB7.html

推

happytiger

05/01 07:51, 3年前 , 1^F

05/01 07:51, 1^F

推

mikelin7747

05/01 08:21, 3年前 , 2^F

05/01 08:21, 2^F

推

FHShih

05/01 08:59, 3年前 , 3^F

05/01 08:59, 3^F