[討論] 節食一定掉肌肉？你可能誤會了~

看板MuscleBeach作者 (非斷不可)時間7年前 (2017/02/26 13:00), 7年前編輯推噓-42(26推 68噓 95→)
留言189則, 50人參與, 最新討論串1/1
先講結論 掉不掉肌肉，應該跟運動或重訓量有關，而非吃的少(節食)或間歇性斷食 節食跟間歇性斷食都可算是一種caloric restriction的型態 只是斷食強調空腹的時間要夠長，而節食強調吃的量要減少 你可以在google scholar上search "caloric restriction muscle"就會得到很多資料 我看過的幾乎都是肯定caloric restriction對人體的好處 當然我要強調，caloric restriction並非是malnutrition 仍然要吃營養新鮮的天然食物，even吃些健康輔助食品或維他命 先看這篇30年前的經典研究 Resistance weight training during caloric restriction enhances lean body weight maintenance. 把40肥胖的女性分成4組，控制組、節食、節食加重訓、重訓 節食加重訓這組，體脂降的跟節食組一樣，但肌肉與力量跟重訓組差不多 也就是說節食加重訓，同時具備了減脂與增肌的效果。 這篇節食的方法是減少一千大卡的熱量，原本平均約2200-2500大卡 當然同時還有補充蛋白質(>=1g/kg)與一些維他命 (可參考fitness討論串) 2007年 Calorie Restriction Increases Muscle Mitochondrial Biogenesis in Healthy Humans 36位 平均BMI28左右 37歲 實驗6個月，分成三組 控制組 Control, 100% of energy requirements 節食組 CR, 25% caloric restriction 節食加重訓 CREX, caloric restriction with exercise (CREX),12.5% CR + 12.5% increased energy expenditure (EE) Conclusions The observed increase in muscle mitochondrial DNA in association with a decrease in whole body oxygen consumption and DNA damage suggests that caloric restriction improves mitochondrial function in young non-obese adults. 2010 Skeletal muscle autophagy and apoptosis during aging: Effects of calorie restriction and life-long exercise 這篇屬動物研究 We investigated the effect of age on autophagy and apoptosis in plantaris muscle of male Fischer 344 rats that were either fed ad libitum, or mild, life-long calorie restricted (CR) alone or combined with life-long voluntary exercise. 結論 We conclude that mild CR attenuates the age-related impairment of autophagy in rodent skeletal muscle, which might be one of the mechanisms by which CR attenuates age-related cellular damage and cell death in skeletal muscle in vivo. 2004動物研究 Aging and lifelong calorie restriction result in adaptations of skeletal muscle apoptosis repressor, apoptosis-inducing factor, X-linked inhibitor of apoptosis, caspase-3, and caspase-12 2012動物研究 Short-Term Calorie Restriction Enhances Skeletal Muscle Stem Cell Function 2004動物研究 Early-onset calorie restriction conserves fiber number in aging rat skeletal muscle 也不少研究是提到節食對長壽的幫助 2006 Effect of 6-Month Calorie Restriction on Biomarkers of Longevity, Metabolic Adaptation, and Oxidative Stress in Overweight Individuals Objective To examine the effects of 6 months of calorie restriction, with or without exercise, in overweight, nonobese (body mass index, 25 to <30) men and women. healthy, sedentary men and women (N = 48) 4 groups for 6 months control (weight maintenance diet) calorie restriction (25% calorie restriction of baseline energy requirements) calorie restriction with exercise (12.5% calorie restriction plus 12.5% increase in energy expenditure by structured exercise) very low-calorie diet (890 kcal/d until 15% weight reduction, followed by a weight maintenance diet). Conclusions Our findings suggest that 2 biomarkers of longevity (fasting insulin level and body temperature) are decreased by prolonged calorie restriction in humans and support the theory that metabolic rate is reduced beyond the level expected from reduced metabolic body mass. Studies of longer duration are required to determine if calorie restriction attenuates the aging process in humans. 2006 Effect of Calorie Restriction With or Without Exercise on Insulin Sensitivity, β-Cell Function, Fat Cell Size, and Ectopic Lipid in Overweight Subjects CONCLUSIONS—Large adipocytes lead to lipid deposition in visceral and hepatic tissues, promoting insulin resistance. Calorie restriction by diet alone or with exercise reverses this trend. 以下這網頁直接討論 Calorie Restriction And Muscle Loss – True or not? http://ivannikolov.com/blog/2012/12/27/calorie-restriction-and-muscle-loss/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedFitness/comments/3uw3v9/research_review_ 3_is_it_possible_to_increase/ 最後題一下，大家可以去研究看看節食的一些新的研究 我並不是去推廣節食，但你認為節食就是會掉肌肉，節食就是錯，那就觀念有點舊了。 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 27.147.46.218 ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/MuscleBeach/M.1488085225.A.187.html ※ 編輯: circlelee (27.147.46.218), 02/26/2017 13:01:30
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02/26 13:03, , 1F
尚書大人真機靈，一下生酮一下斷食一下節食，感覺有點官
02/26 13:03, 1F
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02/26 13:03, , 2F
能失調
02/26 13:03, 2F
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02/26 13:05, , 3F
拔草~
02/26 13:05, 3F
噓
02/26 13:06, , 4F
圈粉這邊報到
02/26 13:06, 4F
噓
02/26 13:07, , 5F
太長了先噓再看
02/26 13:07, 5F
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02/26 13:09, , 6F
節食斷食一定掉肌力，不掉就是你肌力太爛沒得掉 不然
02/26 13:09, 6F
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02/26 13:09, , 7F
就是你的課表超級爛
02/26 13:09, 7F
推
02/26 13:10, , 8F
請教我深蹲
02/26 13:10, 8F
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02/26 13:11, , 9F
為什麼要把自己搞到黑掉 沒人想看文章呢
02/26 13:11, 9F
推
02/26 13:12, , 10F
這我一定推
02/26 13:12, 10F
推
02/26 13:16, , 11F
斷食 讚
02/26 13:16, 11F
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02/26 13:19, , 12F
哈哈，你在貼一些愛因斯坦的論文好了
02/26 13:19, 12F
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02/26 13:19, , 13F
連愛因斯坦都會變廢物被噓唷 XD
02/26 13:19, 13F
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02/26 13:26, , 14F
\ 朝聖教主 / \ 斷食男神 /
02/26 13:26, 14F
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02/26 13:27, , 15F
好啦大概看完來認真回一下
02/26 13:27, 15F
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02/26 13:27, , 16F
你貼的研究大多都是針對過重個體的實驗
02/26 13:27, 16F
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02/26 13:28, , 17F
斷食對肌肉量低脂肪量高的人可能有用
02/26 13:28, 17F
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02/26 13:29, , 18F
但這版都是巨巨啊啊啊啊~
02/26 13:29, 18F
推
02/26 13:29, , 19F
有圈有推!
02/26 13:29, 19F
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02/26 13:31, , 20F
我最後貼的ivan不巨嗎？
02/26 13:31, 20F
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02/26 13:32, , 21F
我還沒提leangains那票人
02/26 13:32, 21F
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02/26 13:33, , 22F
斷食中重訓，那裡掉肌肉？
02/26 13:33, 22F
噓
02/26 13:34, , 23F
他們都很巨，但都不是你；SUMO 80還不做離心沒有跟你
02/26 13:34, 23F
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02/26 13:34, , 24F
討論的必要。
02/26 13:34, 24F
噓
02/26 13:37, , 25F
請大家別噓，不然李圈教的教徒們無法接受
02/26 13:37, 25F
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02/26 13:43, , 26F
我是針對科學研究做討論 最後那篇網誌頂多算是個人經
02/26 13:43, 26F
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02/26 13:43, , 27F
驗 不算是研究
02/26 13:43, 27F
噓
02/26 13:45, , 28F
斷就對啦
02/26 13:45, 28F
噓
02/26 13:47, , 29F
他們都很巨 但都不是你XDDDDD
02/26 13:47, 29F
噓
02/26 13:47, , 30F
有圈有肛
02/26 13:47, 30F
推
02/26 13:49, , 31F
節食不一定掉肌肉沒錯，但是節食肯定會讓長肌肉的效率
02/26 13:49, 31F
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02/26 13:49, , 32F
減低。
02/26 13:49, 32F
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02/26 13:49, , 33F
而長肌肉對於身體是有益的，所以對於有重訓的人，節食
02/26 13:49, 33F
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02/26 13:49, , 34F
是不是也無形中損失了一些好處？
02/26 13:49, 34F
噓
02/26 13:51, , 35F
教主你現在是怎樣 我為了斷食入教 現在又要提倡節食嗎
02/26 13:51, 35F
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02/26 13:52, , 36F
你講再多我都不會聽啦 斷就對了
02/26 13:52, 36F
噓
02/26 13:53, , 37F
斷就對惹
02/26 13:53, 37F
噓
02/26 13:55, , 38F
斷！！！！
02/26 13:55, 38F
推
02/26 13:56, , 39F
請問要怎麼入教？
02/26 13:56, 39F
還有 110 則推文
還有 1 段內文
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02/26 23:47, , 150F
節食同時能有重訓、運動，這是最有利長壽。
02/26 23:47, 150F
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02/26 23:49, , 151F
不見得肌肉大就代表長壽，這點你講的有點over了
02/26 23:49, 151F
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02/27 00:12, , 152F
Fasting or caloric restriction for Healthy Aging
02/27 00:12, 152F
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Exp Gerontol. 2013 Oct; 48(10): 1003–1005.
02/27 00:12, 153F
噓
02/27 00:15, , 154F
“想必你根本沒review這些文獻”
02/27 00:15, 154F
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02/27 00:15, , 155F
看來你又犯了過度推論的老毛病了。
02/27 00:15, 155F
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02/27 00:18, , 156F
你應該先把研究用族群定義出來，再來說節食是不是真的
02/27 00:18, 156F
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02/27 00:18, , 157F
如你所說的那麼好。而且不也有研究說節食有負面效應？
02/27 00:18, 157F
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02/27 00:18, , 158F
你又要怎麼解釋呢？
02/27 00:18, 158F
噓
02/27 00:28, , 159F
凌晨要入教誰可以來接洽嗎？叮叮叮
02/27 00:28, 159F
噓
02/27 00:38, , 160F
\ 卡波加油 / 快一巴掌打醒我們男神
02/27 00:38, 160F
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02/27 00:39, , 161F
Yshen 要信教嗎 那請現在開始斷食溜
02/27 00:39, 161F
噓
02/27 01:12, , 162F
先發誓要斷食然後給我吃炸雞配拿鐵喚醒原始之力用木
02/27 01:12, 162F
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02/27 01:12, , 163F
棍蹲才有入教資格哦
02/27 01:12, 163F
噓
02/27 01:20, , 164F
邏輯沒救了
02/27 01:20, 164F
噓
02/27 02:49, , 165F
叫你不要碰運科了...回統計領域不好嗎Zzz
02/27 02:49, 165F
噓
02/27 07:37, , 166F
木棍蹲到 斷就對了！
02/27 07:37, 166F
噓
02/27 09:12, , 167F
笑屎 怎麼會有這麼丟臉而無自覺的人
02/27 09:12, 167F
噓
02/27 09:47, , 168F
滾啦
02/27 09:47, 168F
噓
02/27 09:50, , 169F
射寶貝什麼時候換鐵棍蹲ㄋ
02/27 09:50, 169F
噓
02/27 10:32, , 170F
大家早安 我斷食八小時了可以吃早餐嗎
02/27 10:32, 170F
噓
02/27 11:32, , 171F
不行喔忠實信徒是 斷！就對了！
02/27 11:32, 171F
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02/27 12:48, , 172F
Dear 可以喝拿鐵哦
02/27 12:48, 172F
噓
02/27 13:57, , 173F
最經典大概是一開始斷食喝拿鐵被糾正死不承認錯誤
02/27 13:57, 173F
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02/27 13:58, , 174F
等到真的發現站不住腳才在那邊辯解
02/27 13:58, 174F
噓
02/27 18:54, , 175F
節食能給的長壽那麼有限 降低免疫力就不要得流感就掛
02/27 18:54, 175F
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02/27 18:55, , 176F
了 長壽也是猴子長壽 你是猴子嗎？
02/27 18:55, 176F
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02/27 18:56, , 177F
斷節食能做的都只有低強度的運動 要不要包一包送給一
02/27 18:56, 177F
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02/27 18:57, , 178F
休巴納納 反正你跟本連深蹲都不會 來這幹嘛？
02/27 18:57, 178F
噓
02/28 01:20, , 179F
奢摳統計領域？
02/28 01:20, 179F
噓
02/28 02:27, , 180F
之前某篇他嗆某人在他面前提啥統計逋啦逋啦的，我是不想
02/28 02:27, 180F
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02/28 02:28, , 181F
了解他是不是真的統計的啦...我只知道他運科觀念不行
02/28 02:28, 181F
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02/28 02:28, , 182F
另外如果沒有學術經歷...解釋實驗也是常常會誤解
02/28 02:28, 182F
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02/28 02:29, , 183F
即使英文很好....
02/28 02:29, 183F
噓
02/28 03:33, , 184F
他統計完全不行啊 之前才有人po他群組的對話給我看
02/28 03:33, 184F
噓
02/28 04:40, , 185F
真心建議，原po可以去當業務或賣保險，會比搞運科有前途
02/28 04:40, 185F
噓
03/01 01:32, , 186F
滾
03/01 01:32, 186F
噓
03/01 09:19, , 187F
無言了~
03/01 09:19, 187F
噓
03/01 12:09, , 188F
據說元po是心理師
03/01 12:09, 188F
噓
03/01 19:18, , 189F
安安給噓 誰叫你要踢我群組
03/01 19:18, 189F
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