Re: [心得] 生酮飲食雜想 - 集中式生酮飲食

看板MuscleBeach作者 (Dkz321)時間9年前 (2016/04/25 10:09), 編輯推噓18(18084)
留言102則, 15人參與, 最新討論串2/2 (看更多)
由於原文實在太長,因此就不貼原文了。 你提到的第一篇論文:Is advice for breakfast consumption justified? Results from a short-term dietary and metabolic experiment in young healthy men. (Martin et al.,2000) 文章實際上要說的是, 早餐攝取高熱量與低熱量飲食的比較,結果發現低熱量飲食比較好, 而論文的設計沒有用低熱量飲食vs完全不吃。 A high glycaemic response was observed in the morning after the high-energy br eakfast period, while there was a peak of free fatty acids after the low-energ y breakfast. The high-energy breakfast induced a strong inhibition of fat oxid ation throughout the day. Although long-term adaptation to a high-energy break fast cannot be excluded, the high-energy breakfast in this study did not appea r to be favourable to health. Our results do not support the current advice to consume more energy at breakfast. 第二篇提到的論文: Breakfast, blood glucose, and cognition.(Benton D, & Parker PY,1998) Abstract提到:早餐禁食會讓記憶力和認知能力下降,而喝含葡萄糖補充品可逆轉此現象 morning fasting was found to adversely affect the ability to recall a word lis t and a story read aloud, as well as recall items while counting backwards, the decline in performance associated with not eating breakfast was reversed b y the consumption of a glucose-supplemented drink 第三篇提到的論文:Breakfast reduces declines in attention and memory over the morning in schoolchildren.(Wesnes KA et al., 2003) 這篇更讓我笑出來,論文標題本來就已經在談:幫助減緩注意力和記憶力下降的早餐 所以不用看內文就已經知道這article不是在論述不吃早餐能提升認知能力 不過我還是看了內文,文中提到: 只喝葡萄糖飲料而完全不吃早餐,會讓注意力和記憶力下降, 不過吃麥片則能維持這方面的認知能力。 The glucose drink and No breakfast conditions were followed by declines in att ention and memory, but the declines were significantly reduced in the two cere al conditions. This study provides objective evidence that a typical breakfast of cereal rich in complex carbohydrates can help maintain mental performance over the morning. 第四篇提到的論文:The effect of a lowcarbohydrate diet on performance, hormona l and metabolic responses to a 30-s bout of supramaximal exercise. 本論文提到: 1.低碳飲食對於無氧運動的表現有害,因為會減少肌肉內的肝糖儲存以及降低葡萄糖分解 作用 2.在運動後三天內休息時減少碳水化合物攝取會增加交感神經作用(個人解讀,本文沒提 到增加交感神經作用對運動表現會怎麼樣,無法以此來解讀增加交感神經作用就能提升運 動表現,其實個人認為,過高的交感神經作用對人體其實是有害的,例如血壓升高,注意 力不集中等等) (1) a L-CHO diet is detrimental to anaerobic work capacity, possibly because o f a reduced muscle glycogen store and decreased rate of glycolysis; (2) reduce d carbohydrate intake for 3 days enhances activity of the sympathoadrenal syst em at rest and after exercise. 第五篇提到的論文:Relative effects of glycogen depletion and previous exercise on muscle force and endurance capacity 由於圖書館沒買到相關期刊,無法閱讀全文, 只能看研究設計前面的部分 文中提到: 運動前完全不攝取碳水化合物,或過量的攝取碳水化合物,都可能會讓肌肉持久力下降 Endurance capacity of human vastus lateralis muscles was observed 24 h after h ard exercise followed by either a carbohydrate-restricted or a carbohydrate-lo aded diet (depletion and repletion conditions). In a control condition the sub jects did no previous exercise and ate their normal diet. Each of these condit ions was followed by an experimental protocol in which the five male subjects made a series of alternating 25-s static contractions of each leg at 50% maxim al voluntary contraction until one leg failed to achieve the required force (T lim). Glycogen concentration before the experimental protocol in both legs was significantly lower in the depletion than in the repletion condition. Muscle lactate and creatine phosphate concentrations were within normal limits before the static contractions. The number of contractions the repleted (12.7 +/- 2. 2) and depleted (10.3 +/- 1.5) legs could sustain before Tlim were not differe nt from each other, but both were 35% (P less than 0.05) fewer than the contro l (17.6 +/- 3.0). 歡迎各位幫忙補充這paper的內容 第六篇提到的論文:Interactions of cortisol, testosterone, and resistance train ing: influence of circadian rhythms. 嗯,的確沒錯,大部分人傍晚時訓練的狀況其實較好 第七篇:Changing concepts on the control of growth hormone secretion in man. 這篇完全沒提到“為什麼吃高GI碳水(化合物)” 整篇Article都在論述生長激素(Growth hormone),標題早就一目了然告訴讀者這篇不是 在講高低GI飲食 第八篇:Intracellular mechanisms underlying increases in glucose uptake in res ponse to insulin or exercise in skeletal muscle. 的確沒錯,運動能增加Insulin hypersensitivity,能有效的幫助降血糖 本文沒有要引戰的意思, 我起初看到你po的文,想說很有心貼出這麼多論文標題,就打算每篇找出來確認後真實性 後再佐證你的看法, 沒想到事與願違。 本篇打臉文重點: 沒證據顯示完全不吃早餐、訓練前完全低碳飲食、高GI食物能有效減脂增肌 當然,沒證據顯示不代表一定不行,但仍歡迎提供相應的證據出來供大家參考及討論 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 58.115.110.61 ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/MuscleBeach/M.1461550181.A.EE5.html

04/25 10:16, , 1F
推 謝謝討鞭 這些都是書上的reference
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04/25 10:17, , 2F
我沒有全PO 我會再檢視書裡的內容
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04/25 10:23, , 3F
早餐的話 是事實 生理週期賀爾蒙變化 就有足夠解釋
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04/25 10:24, , 4F
皮質醇早上會最高峰 此時吃高碳早餐 造成胰島素
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04/25 10:25, , 5F
和高皮質醇的combo作用 肯定會加快脂肪堆積
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04/25 10:27, , 6F
這種飲食難在維持..外食一下就破功了
04/25 10:27, 6F

04/25 10:28, , 7F
我是提倡不吃 '高碳'早餐或不吃或少量
04/25 10:28, 7F

04/25 10:54, , 8F
不吃早餐本質是希望搭配12~14小時的斷食
04/25 10:54, 8F

04/25 10:54, , 9F
並允許少量的MCT油和蛋白補充
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04/25 11:13, , 10F
我發現有些論文你略過 然後說'沒證據' 也太武斷
04/25 11:13, 10F

04/25 11:13, , 11F
除了早餐那邊還要再研究 其餘原文我再補充了
04/25 11:13, 11F

04/25 11:30, , 12F
這篇專業打臉,讚。
04/25 11:30, 12F

04/25 11:31, , 13F
作者寫的limitation之前的原po都跳過還直接亂下結論...
04/25 11:31, 13F

04/25 11:44, , 14F
不吃早餐是因為o大要8:16斷食
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04/25 11:45, , 15F
不過訓練前不吃碳水 我的確有點懷疑
04/25 11:45, 15F

04/25 12:02, , 16F
我每篇article都有提出解說,沒有略過哪一篇直接說沒證據
04/25 12:02, 16F

04/25 12:03, , 17F
。學理上: cortisol 能lipolysis (相關article 請尋 Effec
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04/25 12:03, , 18F
ts of cortisol on lipolysis and regional interstitial
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glycerol levels in humans. [Djurrhuus CB 2002]),而ins
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04/25 12:03, , 20F
ulin的確能lipogenesis沒錯,兩者可互相抵消作用而非加成
04/25 12:03, 20F

04/25 12:03, , 21F
作用,不明白你提出的觀點的基礎為何。高碳飲食本來就會造
04/25 12:03, 21F

04/25 12:04, , 22F
成lipogenesis,這是學界公認。但早餐斷食能否有效增肌你
04/25 12:04, 22F

04/25 12:04, , 23F
沒有提出相關證據
04/25 12:04, 23F

04/25 12:52, , 24F
給推,D大,所以還是建議訓練前補充少量碳水吧?
04/25 12:52, 24F

04/25 13:07, , 25F
適當的cortisol的確能燃脂我也有提 他確實是catabolic
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04/25 13:07, , 26F
hormone
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04/25 13:08, , 27F
但不代表他能真的抵銷胰島素 事實上 high cortisol=hi
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gher insulin resistance
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04/25 13:09, , 29F

04/25 13:09, , 30F
跳早餐的目的是減脂 非增肌
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04/25 13:10, , 31F
上篇文只說跳早餐幫助'減脂'
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04/25 13:11, , 32F
Low carb Diet induced changes in sympatho-adrenal
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activity
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during submaximal exercise in relation to substrat
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e utilization in man.你漏這篇
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04/25 13:53, , 36F
感覺好像進到肌肉沙灘英文版了!不過認真推
04/25 13:53, 36F

04/25 13:55, , 37F
你po的那個網站沒提到cortisol與insulin會"combo"加成lipo
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04/25 13:55, , 38F
genesis
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04/25 13:56, , 39F
也沒提到high cortisol= insulin resistance
04/25 13:56, 39F
還有 23 則推文
04/25 14:40, , 63F
能減脂,但不健康而已
04/25 14:40, 63F

04/25 14:42, , 64F
合理的懷疑 慢慢的嘗試
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04/25 14:43, , 65F
你概念已經混淆了,resistance 亦即身體無法利用胰島素造
04/25 14:43, 65F

04/25 14:43, , 66F
成胰島素升高,而胰島素升高但無法被利用去進行lipogenesi
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04/25 14:51, , 67F
特別說早餐 是因為那是燃脂黃金期 如果不吃碳的話 W
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hen food is ingested at this time, and more notabl
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y when carbs are a part of this meal, insulin rise
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s and fat-burning shuts down. Insulin and cortisol
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are antagonistic hormones and when simultaneously
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elevated they trigger the fat-storing enzyme lipo
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protein lipase to increase while attenuating the e
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ffect of fat-freeing hormone-sensitive lipase[6-8]
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. Not only does this combination therefore dampen
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fat-burning, but it signals the body tostoreat.
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04/25 14:52, , 77F
網站段落
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04/25 14:52, , 78F
如果早餐禁食無法健康減脂 就不會那麼多IF倡導者了
04/25 14:52, 78F

04/25 19:30, , 79F
把名詞釐清好了 high cortisol=more insulin resistan
04/25 19:30, 79F

04/25 22:55, , 80F
佩服原po一篇一篇paper查證… 醫學相關科系覺得慚愧
04/25 22:55, 80F

04/25 22:55, , 81F
QQ
04/25 22:55, 81F

04/26 09:44, , 82F
建議引用論文不要光憑書上怎麼說,而是直接找原論文來看,
04/26 09:44, 82F

04/26 09:45, , 83F
有些作者若不夠嚴謹,很容易斷章取義,為引用而引用,如果
04/26 09:45, 83F

04/26 09:45, , 84F
光看書上引用的論點,很可能會搞錯。
04/26 09:45, 84F

04/26 09:50, , 85F
不過話是這麼說,很多人撰寫論文參考某本書上內容,該內容
04/26 09:50, 85F

04/26 09:50, , 86F
引用哪篇paper往往撰寫論文時就直接照書上引用(而非引用
04/26 09:50, 86F

04/26 09:50, , 87F
該書),卻往往沒去找原文來看(省時間),若口試遇到認真的
04/26 09:50, 87F

04/26 09:50, , 88F
教授(或幫教授看的研究生XD)去一篇篇找出引用的論文看(通
04/26 09:50, 88F

04/26 09:51, , 89F
常是該領域專長才會有sense,覺得好像不太合理),常常會出
04/26 09:51, 89F

04/26 09:51, , 90F
問題。
04/26 09:51, 90F

04/26 20:08, , 91F
推推
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04/26 21:16, , 92F
推原po與原原po, 專業推
04/26 21:16, 92F

04/27 02:32, , 93F
推!如果要引用論文講一些小觀念的話,最好稍微看過論
04/27 02:32, 93F

04/27 02:33, , 94F
文,至少不要犯一些簡單的錯。
04/27 02:33, 94F

04/27 02:33, , 95F
如果引用的論文是你寫文章的主軸的話,建議整篇都閱讀
04/27 02:33, 95F

04/27 02:33, , 96F
04/27 02:33, 96F

04/27 02:33, , 97F
引用論文 研究是一種代表證據力很大的說詞,但這樣有力
04/27 02:33, 97F

04/27 02:33, , 98F
量的說詞是要付出相對大的責任的。
04/27 02:33, 98F

04/27 02:33, , 99F
加油!
04/27 02:33, 99F

04/27 02:34, , 100F
不過不管怎樣,我在兩位的討論中受益良多
04/27 02:34, 100F

04/27 14:19, , 101F
醫學苦手表示可以寫一篇常人版的嗎QQ
04/27 14:19, 101F

07/17 18:41, , 102F
好強……
07/17 18:41, 102F
文章代碼(AID): #1N7Nnbxb (MuscleBeach)
文章代碼(AID): #1N7Nnbxb (MuscleBeach)