The Triple Crown is nonsense

看板MLB作者時間13年前 (2012/09/24 09:09), 編輯推噓121(124385)
留言212則, 64人參與, 最新討論串1/1
http://tinyurl.com/97a23br I like the Triple Crown. Really, I love its place in baseball history and how it's one of the exclusive clubs of the immortals. I also like giving the Most Valuable Player Award to the best player in the league. Miguel Cabrera of the Tigers -- Triple Crown or not -- is just not that guy. 我愛三冠王 我也愛投MVP 只是 肥卡步不是我的菜 In the late 1800's, Henry Chadwick, in an effort to figure out who was good and who wasn't in the game of baseball, began tabulating batting average. Walks and extra-base hits didn't figure in and were not included in what was to become the primary measurement of a player's offensive contribution. Let's cut Chadwick some slack. In the early days of the game, walks were considered to be the fault of the pitcher, and home runs were rarities. Chadwick was doing this, by the way, in roughly the same era when doctors stuck leeches on sick people, and the Army thought throwing thousands of foot soldiers directly into artillery fire was a good idea. Medicine and military strategy have since advanced. Baseball is another story. As Cabrera has vaulted to the top of several random categories, a quaint bit of nostalgia has come roaring back to blind those still clinging to the stats rooted in Civil War-era tabulations: the Triple Crown. 三冠王阿 It's not that batting average, home runs, and RBIs are meaningless. It's just that they are NOWHERE NEAR the three most important offensive categories in baseball. 但 打擊率 全壘打和打點 完全不事三個最重要衡量打擊的數據 Let's just deal with batting average, since it is one of the three categories that some believe should almost automatically bring an MVP to Cabrera. John Thorn, the official historian of Major League Baseball, called batting average a "venerable, uncannily durable fraud" in his book The Hidden Game of Baseball. 打擊率是歷久不衰的騙局 "Time has given the batting average a powerful hold on the American baseball public; everyone knows that a man who hits .300 is a good hitter while one who hits .250 is not," Thorn wrote. "Everyone knows that, no matter that it is not true. You want to trade Bill Madlock for Mike Schmidt? BA treats all its hits in egalitarian fashion. A two-out bunt single in the ninth with no one on base and your team trailing by six runs counts the same as Bobby Thomson's shot heard 'round the world." 大家都知道三成是好打者 二成五則不是 但這不是真的 你想用Bill Madlock換Mike Schmidt? 打擊率把所有的安打等價 不管他是無用的鳥安還是Thomson的驚天一擊 Thorn wrote that in 1984. He must be amazed, as a pioneer in sabermetrics, to see analytic departments in Major League front offices while the media clings to batting average. Let's go through the rest of the big three. The weakness of RBIs are obvious. It is very much a team-dependent stat. Certainly driving in runs is important, but it is very much a result of the number of times your teammates get on base. 打點的問題就明顯了 固然打回跑者很重要 但這很大部分也和隊友上壘次數有關 Home runs are important to tabulate. But what about doubles? Or triples? Don't those count? Adam Dunn has more home runs this year than Robinson Cano, Andrew McCutchen, Mike Trout, Chase Headley, and Prince Fielder. To borrow Thorn's methodology, do you want to tell me you'd take Dunn over any of those five? Not a chance. So let's not blindly follow any of these stats, let alone all three thrown together. 全壘打很重要沒錯 但二壘打 三壘打呢? Dunn幹了比Cano/McCutchen/Trout/Headley Fielder還多轟 這表示他的火力比這些人都強嗎? Now that, hopefully, we see the Triple Crown to be the antiquated throwback that it is, we can also admit that anyone winning it has had a monstrous offensive season. So the real question is: Who's having the better season, Cabrera or Trout, the Angels' rookie outfielder? 所以真正的問題是 Cabrera和Trout 誰的球季比較好? The first two numbers to look at are on-base percentage and slugging percentage. Cabrera began the day at .398/.616, Trout was at .395/.558. That's a sizable advantage in power for Cabrera. The Detroit slugger also led the league with 356 total bases, while Trout had 290. That's 66 more bases. Trout was kept in Triple-A until April 28 and has 58 fewer plate appearances, but that's not Cabrera's problem. Cabrera有長打方面的優勢 But while Triple Crown devotees look to three stats and shut it down, someone actually doing some MVP analysis should look at the whole game -- including baserunning and defense. 但比賽的其他面向 - 包括跑壘和防守 - 也該列入考量 It's easy to say Trout is better on the basepaths than Miggy, but the actually quantifiable difference is staggering. Trout has 42 net steals. Cabrera has three. Beyond stolen bases, it's possible to at least get a good idea of a baserunner's effectiveness by measuring extra bases taken. XBT should appeal to the old-timey, computer-hating scout types -- it counts every time a player goes from first to third or second to home on a single, or they score from first on a double. Trout has 55. Cabrera has 30. Twenty-five more bases is a sizable difference. The rookie's percentage of successful extra bases taken, by the way, is as high as Willie Mays' career mark. Mays has the best percentage of anyone I've been able to find in the history of the game, and by a wide margin. Trout跑壘顯然較好 不僅盜壘數大勝 也多拿了25個壘包 Trout搶壘的能力幾乎可和Willie Mays相提並論 Adding net steals and extra bases taken, Trout is 64 bases better than Cabrera. Sixty-four! Cabrera's advantage in total bases earned from hitting, which was 62, is essentially wiped out by Trout's running superiority. This is rough math, but extra bases taken while running are ignored by on-base and slugging (and of course by the Triple Crown stats). Trout跑壘上比Cabrera多拿了64個壘包 One more running/hitting stat -- grounded-into double plays. Cabrera has 28. Trout has seven. That's 21 more outs that are not accounted for in Cabrera's hitting line. Notice I'm talking double plays, going from first to third and scoring from second on singles. Wins Above Replacement will not be brought up in the analysis. We don't need new math, only a logical progression of thought. When you put it together objectively, Trout -- EVEN MISSING THE FIRST MONTH OF THE SEASON -- is the better offensive player in 2012. 再加上雙殺打 簡單分析之後可發現Trout是進攻較好的球員 The issue of "clutch" hitting, is another column. Cabrera certainly excels in that area. Trout does, as well, and his job, is to set up the "clutch" run-scoring opportunities. Once there, as we have seen, he's the among the best ever. 兩個人關鍵表現都很好 So that's half the game of baseball. Want to venture into the other half, Triple Crown fans? Cabrera certainly deserves credit for moving to third base for the good of his team. He has not been a disaster, despite predictions from almost everywhere. Let's just use one defensive metric, Bill James' runs saved and call this a day. Cabrera is currently at -5 runs saved at third. Trout is at +25. That means over the course of the season, as best as we can decipher, Trout has saved 25 more runs than the average player at his position. This is an immense number of runs saved. So we have the best defensive center fielder in baseball (tied with Michael Bourn of the Braves), or the 28th-best third baseman. Center field and third base have roughly the same value defensively, so this, too, is a blowout. Trout防守完勝Cabrera By things we can easily measure, Trout is about dead even with Cabrera in total bases while hitting and running at a higher level, doing so in 58 fewer plate appearances, and making 21 fewer outs via double plays alone. He is also 30 runs better defensively. It's just not close. 綜合以上所述 Trout是遠勝Cabrera的球員 Look, if Miguel Cabrera wins the Triple Crown this year, he deserves to be put alongside Carl Yastrzemski, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig. It just doesn't mean, on its own, that he was the best player in the American League. He's not. Mike Trout is. Cabrera是應該以三冠王的身分和神獸們相提並論 但他不是美聯最好的球員 Trout才是 Good analysis asks the question, then answers it based on evidence. Lazy analysis has a conclusion, then looks for anything to back it up. When you ask, "Who is the best player in the American League?" the answer this year, even with the possibility of a Triple Crown, is inescapable. -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 140.112.25.133

09/24 09:19, , 1F
很不錯的觀點!
09/24 09:19, 1F

09/24 09:20, , 2F
照他們這樣說投手拿mvp也沒標準阿==
09/24 09:20, 2F

09/24 09:20, , 3F
不過我覺得有兩點數據外的東西,如果影響到票選我可以接受。
09/24 09:20, 3F

09/24 09:20, , 4F
第一點就是所謂的黃金交叉...
09/24 09:20, 4F

09/24 09:20, , 5F
如果說有兩個人所有成績一模一樣
09/24 09:20, 5F

09/24 09:21, , 6F
但一個人80%的數據是在上半季累積的...
09/24 09:21, 6F

09/24 09:21, , 7F
另一個則是80%數據在下半季累積的(僅僅是舉例)
09/24 09:21, 7F

09/24 09:21, , 8F
照理說他們貢獻度應該是一樣的
09/24 09:21, 8F

09/24 09:22, , 9F
畢竟例行賽是一個累積的過程,而非一個跳躍式的過程
09/24 09:22, 9F

09/24 09:22, , 10F
就好比籃球比賽有時會出現一個人單場得了40分
09/24 09:22, 10F

09/24 09:23, , 11F
另一個人槍響時投進了壓哨的兩分球讓球隊獲勝
09/24 09:23, 11F

09/24 09:23, , 12F
可能他整場就得那2分,但那2分非常重要而令人印象深刻
09/24 09:23, 12F

09/24 09:24, , 13F
我看完原文只覺得這篇文章很偏袒Trout 在這兩個球員之間 絕
09/24 09:24, 13F

09/24 09:24, , 14F
但要說只得2分壓哨球的人貢獻度就大於另一位全場得40分的嗎
09/24 09:24, 14F

09/24 09:24, , 15F
對沒有誰是完勝對方的 但卻把Trout講到好像完爆對手是怎樣?
09/24 09:24, 15F

09/24 09:24, , 16F
但即使如此,如果有兩人成績一模一樣
09/24 09:24, 16F

09/24 09:25, , 17F
但大家把票投給下半季比較好的那個人,我可以接受。
09/24 09:25, 17F

09/24 09:25, , 18F
這就是所謂投票者的信仰了 各自支持的信條影響手中的選票
09/24 09:25, 18F

09/24 09:26, , 19F
第二點就是所謂的 少年英雄話題 跟 老兵不死話題
09/24 09:26, 19F

09/24 09:26, , 20F
如果有人20歲就打超好,他當然值得額外的掌聲。
09/24 09:26, 20F

09/24 09:27, , 21F
另一方面,如果有人40歲那年還打超好,他也值得額外的掌聲。
09/24 09:27, 21F

09/24 09:27, , 22F
假設三個人成績一模一樣
09/24 09:27, 22F

09/24 09:28, , 23F
一個20歲英雄少年,一個30歲正當壯年,一個40歲英雄遲暮
09/24 09:28, 23F

09/24 09:28, , 24F
那大家票通常會投給前者或後者,不會投給那個正當壯年的
09/24 09:28, 24F

09/24 09:28, , 25F
這我可以接受。
09/24 09:28, 25F

09/24 09:31, , 26F
但如果把名字遮住,只比數據也不能說錯吧...
09/24 09:31, 26F

09/24 09:32, , 27F
總之無論是季後賽效應,三冠王效應,英雄出少年效應
09/24 09:32, 27F

09/24 09:32, , 28F
還是黃金交叉效應 或多或少都會影響到投票
09/24 09:32, 28F

09/24 09:33, , 29F
如果把所有效應都拿掉,把名字遮住用電腦跑應該是最公平的
09/24 09:33, 29F

09/24 09:33, , 30F
梅洛克:躺著也中槍
09/24 09:33, 30F

09/24 09:34, , 31F
不過既然規則是用投票的
09/24 09:34, 31F

09/24 09:34, , 32F
g大觀念很值得思考
09/24 09:34, 32F

09/24 09:34, , 33F
就讓球員們用自己的表現來拉票吧!
09/24 09:34, 33F

09/24 09:43, , 34F
可以連推 真好
09/24 09:43, 34F

09/24 09:46, , 35F
R+RBI-HR 米果比鱒魚還要優秀
09/24 09:46, 35F

09/24 10:16, , 36F
我比較好奇的是為什麼g大的推不用CD...
09/24 10:16, 36F

09/24 10:17, , 37F
因為他是板主 所以可以連推
09/24 10:17, 37F

09/24 10:18, , 38F
原來如此.免CD
09/24 10:18, 38F

09/24 10:30, , 39F
板主威能免CD....XD
09/24 10:30, 39F
還有 133 則推文
09/24 14:16, , 173F
單一來看"似乎"不是很重要 但是三冠王跟我說不重要??
09/24 14:16, 173F

09/24 14:16, , 174F
這種文章就是跟你說個別都不能代表這打者很好 所以
09/24 14:16, 174F

09/24 14:17, , 175F
就算這三個都是第一名也不是很好?? 這理論說得通?
09/24 14:17, 175F

09/24 14:24, , 176F
他講的是"most important", 也就是說他認為很重要但不是最重
09/24 14:24, 176F

09/24 14:25, , 177F
要,不過這只單純就是WAR派的論點,喜歡看進階數據的人都會
09/24 14:25, 177F

09/24 14:25, , 178F
認為今年Trout表現很明顯勝過Miggy,不過就看投票者怎麼選了
09/24 14:25, 178F

09/24 14:28, , 179F
當你心有所屬 甚至連三冠王也可以抨擊 不過就是譁眾取寵
09/24 14:28, 179F

09/24 14:31, , 180F
如果原po拿到三冠王 卻沒有MVP 他在來說這一切都是公平的
09/24 14:31, 180F

09/24 16:41, , 181F
Trout還是先顧好自己就好,SI魔咒下至少要正常打完最後幾場
09/24 16:41, 181F

09/24 16:41, , 182F
MVP這種東西總還是附加價值,就算只拿第二還是猛到爆了。
09/24 16:41, 182F

09/24 16:49, , 183F
以Trout今年的表現只要不壞掉,MVP早晚會入袋....
09/24 16:49, 183F

09/24 18:31, , 184F
說avghrrbi不重要,卻稱讚sb...
09/24 18:31, 184F

09/24 18:37, , 185F
我記得SB造成的得分期望值好像是負的
09/24 18:37, 185F

09/24 19:05, , 186F
那要看成功率
09/24 19:05, 186F

09/24 19:05, , 187F
Trout 46SB-4CS 隨便想也知道絕對是正的
09/24 19:05, 187F

09/24 19:19, , 188F
最後投票的人應該會以誰能帶進季後賽來選了吧 如果都沒
09/24 19:19, 188F

09/24 19:19, , 189F
有進的話 就看誰戰績好吧 其實選誰都不會讓人太意外
09/24 19:19, 189F

09/24 20:06, , 190F
靠北 成功率92%......
09/24 20:06, 190F

09/24 20:07, , 191F
誰說SB造成的期望值是負的了= =
09/24 20:07, 191F

09/24 20:07, , 192F
頂多只能說對得分的幫助不如那些老學院派以為的大
09/24 20:07, 192F

09/24 20:08, , 193F
成功率只要有66%以上 盜壘就對球隊有幫助了
09/24 20:08, 193F

09/24 20:33, , 194F
我記得是要75%以上喔...
09/24 20:33, 194F

09/24 20:48, , 195F
不同聯盟不一樣啦 大聯盟需要比較高
09/24 20:48, 195F

09/24 20:48, , 196F
中職比較低一點 不過中間值約70%
09/24 20:48, 196F

09/24 21:08, , 197F
這篇原作者是多討厭Miguel Cabrera啦 凸
09/24 21:08, 197F

09/24 21:09, , 198F
把Trout神話的很強一樣 最賭爛這種主觀的文章
09/24 21:09, 198F

09/24 21:09, , 199F
Miguel Cabrera就是MVP啦 希望原作者臉被打越腫越好
09/24 21:09, 199F

09/24 21:10, , 200F
以後比賽都不看AVG RBI HR這些數據啊 笑死人了
09/24 21:10, 200F

09/24 21:12, , 201F
如果盜壘一定是負的 那誰還要盜XD
09/24 21:12, 201F

09/24 21:23, , 202F
這文太偏了...把米糕貶得這麼低 他們差距絕對沒有很大
09/24 21:23, 202F

09/24 21:23, , 203F
差距是指貢獻度
09/24 21:23, 203F

09/24 21:55, , 204F
先不討論打擊率、全壘打、打點是不是重要的數據,但它
09/24 21:55, 204F

09/24 21:56, , 205F
的確讓球賽變好看 :P
09/24 21:56, 205F

09/24 22:55, , 206F
09/24 22:55, 206F

09/25 00:27, , 207F
avg講法可以接受 不過說RBI和HR不重要的理由很怪
09/25 00:27, 207F

09/25 00:28, , 208F
RBI高除了靠隊友上壘 要有那個實力把他打回來更重要吧
09/25 00:28, 208F

09/25 00:30, , 209F
且也證明了胖卡的高avg 不是膨風 都是貨真價實的有貢獻
09/25 00:30, 209F

09/25 00:30, , 210F
安打
09/25 00:30, 210F

09/25 00:34, , 211F
HR講法更遷強 扯到AD幹嘛 用AD HR多AVG低來證明HR不
09/25 00:34, 211F

09/25 00:38, , 212F
重要 暗示所以胖卡HR多不重要 這推論也太跳tone了吧~
09/25 00:38, 212F
文章代碼(AID): #1GNxBIB5 (MLB)