Re: [新聞] 柯Ｐ稱《屠殺》內容不對 應去查幕後是誰買廣告已回收
這篇英文版資料蠻完整的，翻譯品質也很棒。先向airyptt大感謝，辛苦了。
跟網站上的聲明及影片交叉比對後，我做個簡單整理：
(聲明稿我翻譯在#1RZVAljG HatePolitics http://goo.gl/F71JyDA，可以對照看)
可以知道從作者Gutmann的角度來看，柯是為了他的病人到中國去瞭解對岸器官移植一條
龍服務；因為當年在台灣器官移植系統還沒完成一旦需要器捐幾乎等同死刑。
後來柯和中國的舊識聯絡交際，對方承諾能將柯的病人比照本地人的移植收費標準；但同
時卻也告知所謂新鮮器官摘取的來源是法輪功。
柯就覺得怪怪的，開始著手完成一個器官登錄系統並遊說中國外科醫生使用(此前中國是
用類似拍賣的方式及email私下聯絡)；而這個系統強制醫生必須填寫器捐者的個人詳細資
料、醫療紀錄、血型、地址、犯罪紀錄，藉此對身為幫兇的醫生給予心理壓力。
當然中國醫生拒絕了，所以柯悶悶不樂最後在偶然的機會向Gutmann吐露了整個故事；隨
後柯馬上就被中國醫界給封殺了。
Gutmann在聲明就開門見山的說柯不是器官仲介者(organ broker)。結果2014年和這幾天
來想搞事的人無視這些，拼命把柯講得好像兩岸買辦跟摘取器官的幫兇一樣。
拜託，你有看過哪個買辦有錢好好的不賺反而跑去跟維權記者聯繫搞到被整個中國醫界封
殺的？真的是選舉一到白的都能說成黑的。
大guy是這樣。
請大家把正確的資訊傳遞下去，不要讓傳統的抹黑選舉歪風持續。
有需要儘管轉貼分享給周邊的人不用客氣。
附上翻譯連結：
聲明 https://goo.gl/8oQ7w4
本文 https://goo.gl/BdZ7Xd
※ 引述《airyptt (跌宕不羈)》之銘言：
:==================================================================
Gutmann本人有在網站(https://goo.gl/dKvVd9)提供相關文件資料，
畫面右下角可以下載一個壓縮檔包含律師說明函、英文版書籍內容、等...
以下為英文版翻譯內容
"You really don't understand, do you? You can do whatever you want in China.
Cut someone up. Cut their dick off if you like."
He showed his teeth as he presented me with a smile that wasn't pleasant.
This was unsettling. Yet my real fear was not that he would call me a stupid
foreigner again but that he would shut down the interview. I had no choice but
to be perfectly candid:
"Look, I am not from a government agency. I can't make you talk about this,
I'm just a writer. I have no power to posecute you or cause trouble for your
practice. And I know that you care about your patients. By going to the
mainland for tranplants, you are saving lives."
Leeshai jumped in:
"I've just come from Israel. The governement has banned organ tourism from
a legally executed criminal or a prisoner of conscience."
"Do you want that to happen here?" I added. " It will, if it's not clened up
.... So is it true? Aren't prisoners of conscience -- Falun Gong, perhaps
others, being harvesterd?"
What happened next was something I thought only occured in the movies. Ko's
body seemed to simply retract, his jaw, his shoulders collapsing. His eyes ga-
zing at the emptiness of the wall, he fell into a barely audible hiss. "Yes,"
Dr. Ko said, " Yes, they are doing that. Yes, it's true."
Gutmann: “你真的不知道，對吧? 你可以在中國大陸做任何你想做的事情，就像是支解
某人、你喜歡甚至能切除某人陰莖(dick)”。
他(柯文哲)露出了尷尬的笑容，這使得我有一些擔心。我擔心的不是他會叫我是個愚蠢的
外國人，而是他終止這個訪談，但我沒有選擇我只能盡我所能直白地說:
Gutmann: “聽著，我不是政府官員，我不能強迫你談論這個。我只是一個作家，我沒有
權力起訴你或是對你的職崖造成麻煩。我知道你是因為關心你的病患才去中國大陸尋求器
官移植，你是在拯救生命” 。
Leeshai插了句話: “我剛從以色列回來。當地政府已經禁止人民前往中國進行來源為已
伏
法的死刑犯及政治犯的器官移植。”
Gutmann: ”你想讓這件事也發生在這裡嗎? (按編:沒有前後文，無法得知是指台灣還
是哪裡) 如果不處理的話，這邊也會發生…。 所以這是真的嗎? 政治犯們(法輪功，或許
其他人)正在被活摘器官?”
接下來的事情我想只會在電影中發生，柯文哲的身軀後縮、下巴以及肩膀鬆垮下落、眼睛
望著空蕩蕩的牆壁用著微弱的氣音回答:
Ko: “是的，沒錯，他們做著這樣的事情，這是真的”。
==================================================
A few years before we showed up at his office, Dr. Ko began thinking about go-
ing to the mainland to accquire human organs. It wasn't a pleasant decision;
he was a conscientious and careful surgeon, not a gambler. But the waiting pe-
riod for a liver or even a kidney in Taiwan could be as long as two or three
years. Time enough for many of his elderly patients to simply waste away. And
if Chinese hospitals could perform the soup-to-nuts services they claimed on
the web --- donor to order, tissue match, surgery, observation, drug therapy,
recovery ---- patients who could barely be loaded onto a plane might come ba-
ck as human beings who had successfully digeted their airline meal, weren't
sure they actually needed the wheelchair, and tearfully hugged their grand-
children. Taiwan was a death sentence: mainland Chinese hospitals were bla-
tantly advertising a tissuematched organ within a week or perhaps two.
在我們接觸柯文哲幾年之前，柯醫師老早就想到中國大陸以取得人體器官(註4)。這不是
一
個愉快的決定因為他是一位有良知且慎重的外科醫師、而不是一個賭徒。但是在台灣一位
等待肝臟甚至腎臟移植的病人都可能需要等上兩三年，這使得許多年長的病患在等待過程
中往生；而如果大陸的醫院能跟他們廣告中說明的一樣提供一條龍服務(找尋器捐者、進
行
配對、手術、觀察、藥物治療、復健) ，那些虛弱到幾乎無法搭乘飛機的病人可能會恢復
到正常的狀態：吃著飛機餐、不需要輪椅、喜極而泣地抱著自己的孫子。在台灣等待器捐
像是一個死刑的宣告; 對比之下大陸大肆廣告只需要一到兩個禮拜就能找到捐贈者。
He didn't particularly want to look behind the mainland curtain, that's all.
Yes, you could do anything you liked in China. And castration wasn't all that
different from what he was trying to do; it was common knowledge that the org-
ans were being taken from executed prisoners on death row. So if his job was
to ride his gragile patients into the wild, wild east and bring them back
alive, okay, but even that wasn't certain; the criminal lifestyle led to a
high probability of drug use or promiscuous sex. Hepatitis, just for starters,
was rampant. Labor camp led to stress and malnutrition. Any, or perhaps all,
of these medical histories would now be given a second life in his patients'
bodies. And what was the recourse if something went wrong in this highly com-
petitive business fought out in a legal no-man's land? Nor were his patients
rich. Taiwan was still an emerging tiger; his patients had lived intersting
lives to be sure, but modest oones. A glance at the web established the
foreigner price of $62000 (US) for a kidney. Because the Chinese regarded the
Taiwanese as alick foreigners wearing a Chinese mask, that would be his price,
too. Yet native Chinese were paying half that or even less. This injustice
gnawed at him. Somehow, where so many Taiwanese businessmen before him had
failed. Dr. Ko would have to convince the mainland doctors he was not a
foreign devil but a brother.
柯醫師並不想一窺背後的黑幕，就是這樣。但是沒錯，在中國你可以做任何你喜歡的事情
。摘取也不完全不同於他所想做的: 在當時從伏法的死刑犯身上摘取器官是常識。所以如
果他的工作是要帶他虛弱的病人去中國大陸治療，這沒問題，但是這也不是無法置喙的事
情；這些罪犯很有可能濫用毒品以及濫交。舉個例子，肝炎是相當猖獗的；關政治犯的集
中營環境也會導致精神壓力及營養不良。這些病史可能無法讓接受移植的人重獲新生。
在移植這個高度競爭的商業行為中，萬一出事了又該怎麼在這片不談法治的地盤自力救濟
?
（所有之前已經增加到該摘取器官的負擔風險也會一併被移植到他的病人身上。更甚者，
如果發生了什麼問題，在這塊法律上三不管地帶，要如何跟有著優勢的醫院攻訐？）
更何況柯的病患都不是有錢人；台灣早期的人有錢可以過著開心的生活，但是近期的人並
非如此。一覽網路上對外國病患的收費價格，一顆腎臟要價62000美元。因為中國人當時
認
為台灣人只是投機的戴上中國面具的外國人，所以他知道這可能就是他能拿到的價格。然
而如果是大陸本地人的話只需要一半的價格或著更少。這個不公義的現象困擾著他。不管
如何，在許多前人失敗的狀況下，他必須說服大陸他不是外國人而是親人(a brother)。
Dr. Ko went to China and meticulously worked thtough the cicklist of intimacy
with his medical colleagues. The go-to-hell banquet. The karaoke bar. The
cognac followed by the Mao-Tai. The subtle flattery and the jokes about his
accent. And when the ritual was truly finished, and everyone had sobered up,
the Chinese surgeons summoned him.
you are one of us. You are a brother. So we will give you the family
price. But we are going to do more for you than that. We noted your
worries and concerns about organ quality. And we trust your discretion.
So you will have no worries for your patients. They will receive nothing
but the best; all the organs will come from Falun Gong. These people
may be a little farcical, but you know? They don't drink. They don't
smoke. Many of them are young, and they all practice healthy Chinses
Qi-Gong. Soon your patients --- they will be young and healthy, too.
柯醫師去了大陸並且找到了他的舊識，吃了飯、唱了歌(按註: 此部分已經透過聲明表示
並沒有發生唱歌這件事情) 。這個通往地獄的交際宴會、卡拉Ok酒吧、白蘭地緊接著茅台
酒一瓶一瓶的上、搏感情以及自嘲灣灣口音。在結束酒酣耳熱大家清醒的狀態下大陸的外
科醫師們跟他說：「你是我們的一員、也是我們的好兄弟，所以我們會給你親友價，不僅
如此我們還可以給的更多，我們知道你擔心器官的品質，我們也信任你會保密，所以你不
需要為你的病人擔心。他們會得到最好的器官：所有的器官都來自法輪功。這些人雖然有
些可笑滑稽(farcical)，但是你知道嗎？他們不喝酒、不抽菸。很多都是年輕人而且這些
年輕人很多都練中國氣功。不久之後你的病人也會變得年輕健康。＂
And Dr. Ko smiled and thanked them politely, and the process began. But at the
point of victory. Ko had felt no relief, only something that gnawed at him
far worse than before. Something he could not speak of.
柯文哲禮貌性地感謝對方，這件事情也因此開始運作。但是在成功以後柯醫師並沒有
感覺如釋重負，反而這件事情更加的捆擾著他，而他卻不能夠說出來。
Even as he set up appointments for his patients on the mainland, Dr. Ko kept
thinking that there must be a way to rationalize the system, to apply some
oversight, some sort of technical fix. Now that the mainland doctors had blood
on their hands there was no obvious path to medical reform. An open discussion
would require dredging up the past. The patry would never allow the slaughter
of prisoners of conscience to be revealed to the world --- in fact, his Chi-
nese surgeon friends had already let him know discreetly that the harvesting
of Falun Gong would be put on hold as the Olympics approached. But don't worry
,
they reassured him, when the Olympics are over it will start up again! Perhaps
the way forward was to use that brief hiatus as an opening to implement good
bureaucratic hygiene, something to raise the cost of keeping secrets?
甚至在他已經幫他病患預約好要去大陸時，柯醫師始終想著一定有一個方法(借助某種科
技
上的方法去修正)可以正當化、流程化這個系統使其受到監督。但是大陸的醫生已經雙手
沾
滿雙血使得這趟醫療改革(reform)充滿著不明確；開放的討論勢必會帶來一場對過往的轉
型正義，而中共根本不可能讓這場對於政治犯的屠殺公諸於世。實際上他的中
國外科醫生朋友們已經慎重地告知他所有一切關於法輪功摘取器官的事情將隨著北京奧運
來臨而暫時擱置，但是他們保證等奧運結束以後一切都會恢復正常。或許接下來中國藉著
短暫擱置器官販賣這件事情可以作為開端，來掩蓋官僚體系下的藏污納垢——然而使得保
密的代價升高也說不定？
There was plenty of talk about consent forms -- making the prisoner sign a
release donating his or her organ to the nation "as a final penance" or some-
thing like that. But the surgeon knew the labor-camp administrators could get
anyone to sign anything. Reform had to start with the doctors'conscience and
sense of self-preservation. On his own time, Dr. Ko labored to create a na-
tional database system, a mandatory elecronic form just for the surgeon. For
every organ acquired, the doctor would have to fill in details on individual
donor health, medical background, blood type, address, arrest record, every-
thing. Do. Ko moved us over to his desktop computer, and we looked it over. It
was beautiful actually -- simple, clear, mainland-user friendly--- something
even a barefoot doctor could use.
那裡有許多的同意書：強迫犯人以「還清罪孽」或類似的理由簽署捐贈同意書將器官捐贈
給國家。但是中國的外科醫生早知政治犯集中營的管理人可以迫使任何人簽署任何文件。
改革得從醫生的良知以及能自保的狀況下著手進行。柯醫師花了個人時間費心建立起一個
全國性資料庫，一份給外科醫生的電子強制性表格，醫生必須詳實填寫器捐者的個人健康
資料、醫療紀錄、血型、地址、犯罪紀錄、等等……。 柯醫師向我們展示了他的電腦，
我們仔細的看了一遍，該表格簡單、明瞭、對大陸本地使用者易於操作，甚至就連赤腳醫
生(註：指的是文革後期未經正式醫療訓練的農村醫療人員)都會操作使用。
Maybe he could even have sold the sytem to the Chinese medical establishment,
even received some sort of compensation, and yet -- that gnaw again -- even
if the mainland doctors adopted the system. "you would only remove 95 percent
of the problem." Ko said. shaking his head.
或許他可能將這套系統賣到大陸去、甚至能得到一些補償及救贖，但是那個困擾再次浮現
——即便大陸醫生採用了這個系統，柯文哲搖著頭說那也只能解決百分之95的問題。
(註：意味著就算能確保器官品質及讓爭議器官從檯面上消失，仍存在其他問題未能解決)
Anyway, they rejected it. It was obvious in retrospect that it was okay for
the mainland doctors to run a sort of infomal auction for organ trading, done
through e-mails and discrete online user groups, but Ko's forms would either
cut out too many donors from the systems, create too much of a level playing
field, or perhaps simply leave too much of an electronic trail. It was too
late in the day, and it was sickening: the rejection was passed on to Dr. Ko
with the respect you give to a distant cousin who doen't quite get it.
不管如何，他們拒絕了。這根本不意外因為在以往大陸醫生進行非正式的器官拍賣跟私下
與交易者用電子郵件及離線群組溝通是沒問題的，反倒是柯醫師的表格可能會從原本系統
中排除過多的捐贈者並造成流程過多、亦或單純只是會留下電子足跡而已。這個體系已經
太遲且病入膏肓，給予的建議就像是對牛彈琴一樣。
Dr.Ko was whispering now: "But something should be done, something sould be
done."
柯醫師此時喃喃自語: “但是有些事情必須完成...有些事情必須完成。”
A year or so after the database was rejected, Dr.Ko gave an anonymous inter-
view to an American writer -- well, we thought it was anonymous anyway -- and
the surgeon was banned from the mainland.
當該建議被拒絕後一年，柯醫師給了一個美國作家匿名訪談的機會(恩…不管如何我們當
時認為是神不知鬼不覺的)，而同時柯醫師也被大陸給封殺了。
以上全文, 請搭配律師說明及影片說明,
最後, 當我寫信給Mr. Gutmann說明要翻譯此內容的時候, 他建議我翻譯他網站上面的
說明影片, 但是他也提到我們在一個自由的國度, 所以我可以翻譯, 他只希望
我能中立公平地翻譯。
所以任何翻譯該網站的內容原則上我想是不會冒犯到他本人的, 不用擔心被告
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 42.74.130.25
※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Gossiping/M.1536083916.A.3C9.html
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09/05 01:59,
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呃，就算我們知道沒有還是要把正確的資訊傳遞給沒有接觸到的中立選民
※ 編輯: kinomon (42.74.130.25), 09/05/2018 02:03:36
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※ kinomon:轉錄至看板 HatePolitics 09/05 02:12
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※ 編輯: kinomon (42.74.130.25), 09/05/2018 02:31:24
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很常看到你啊，不管你是網軍還是柯黑，想給紅也有創意點
如果不是看不下去藍綠的選戰模式，我幹嘛吃力不討好特地花時間翻譯文章給大家看
想抹我之前先把500匯到我帳戶喇
※ 編輯: kinomon (42.74.130.25), 09/05/2018 02:37:34
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, 23F
09/05 04:47, 23F
瑕不掩瑜啦==
推
09/05 05:39,
5年前
, 24F
09/05 05:39, 24F
推
09/05 05:42,
5年前
, 25F
09/05 05:42, 25F
推
09/05 06:37,
5年前
, 26F
09/05 06:37, 26F
推
09/05 06:43,
5年前
, 27F
09/05 06:43, 27F
推
09/05 06:49,
5年前
, 28F
09/05 06:49, 28F
推
09/05 06:55,
5年前
, 29F
09/05 06:55, 29F
→
09/05 07:00,
5年前
, 30F
09/05 07:00, 30F
推
09/05 07:09,
5年前
, 31F
09/05 07:09, 31F
推
09/05 07:09,
5年前
, 32F
09/05 07:09, 32F
推
09/05 07:09,
5年前
, 33F
09/05 07:09, 33F
推
09/05 07:09,
5年前
, 34F
09/05 07:09, 34F
還有 25 則推文
→
09/05 09:02,
5年前
, 60F
09/05 09:02, 60F
推
09/05 09:04,
5年前
, 61F
09/05 09:04, 61F
推
09/05 09:04,
5年前
, 62F
09/05 09:04, 62F
推
09/05 09:05,
5年前
, 63F
09/05 09:05, 63F
推
09/05 09:06,
5年前
, 64F
09/05 09:06, 64F
推
09/05 09:18,
5年前
, 65F
09/05 09:18, 65F
剛睡醒，等等會再順一次稿。謝謝各位！
※ 編輯: kinomon (42.74.130.25), 09/05/2018 09:30:37
推
09/05 09:44,
5年前
, 66F
09/05 09:44, 66F
推
09/05 09:46,
5年前
, 67F
09/05 09:46, 67F
※ 編輯: kinomon (42.74.130.25), 09/05/2018 10:32:38
推
09/05 10:06,
5年前
, 68F
09/05 10:06, 68F
→
09/05 10:06,
5年前
, 69F
09/05 10:06, 69F
※ 編輯: kinomon (42.74.130.25), 09/05/2018 11:46:07
推
09/05 10:42,
5年前
, 70F
09/05 10:42, 70F
推
09/05 10:45,
5年前
, 71F
09/05 10:45, 71F
→
09/05 10:45,
5年前
, 72F
09/05 10:45, 72F
推
09/05 10:45,
5年前
, 73F
09/05 10:45, 73F
推
09/05 10:49,
5年前
, 74F
09/05 10:49, 74F
推
09/05 10:56,
5年前
, 75F
09/05 10:56, 75F
噓
09/05 11:23,
5年前
, 76F
09/05 11:23, 76F
→
09/05 11:24,
5年前
, 77F
09/05 11:24, 77F
→
09/05 11:25,
5年前
, 78F
09/05 11:25, 78F
→
09/05 11:26,
5年前
, 79F
09/05 11:26, 79F
噓
09/05 11:28,
5年前
, 80F
09/05 11:28, 80F
→
09/05 11:30,
5年前
, 81F
09/05 11:30, 81F
→
09/05 11:31,
5年前
, 82F
09/05 11:31, 82F
→
09/05 11:31,
5年前
, 83F
09/05 11:31, 83F
→
09/05 11:33,
5年前
, 84F
09/05 11:33, 84F
→
09/05 11:35,
5年前
, 85F
09/05 11:35, 85F
→
09/05 11:42,
5年前
, 86F
09/05 11:42, 86F
→
09/05 11:43,
5年前
, 87F
09/05 11:43, 87F
→
09/05 11:43,
5年前
, 88F
09/05 11:43, 88F
別激動，我知道organ tourism指名義上是跨國旅遊，實際上是為了接受器官移植。
內文已經潤飾修正更接近原意了。如果有比較信達雅的翻譯歡迎推文提出我會進行更改。
※ 編輯: kinomon (42.74.130.25), 09/05/2018 12:00:15
推
114.137.87.173 09/05 11:5, , 89F
114.137.87.173 09/05 11:5, 89F
9
推
09/05 12:07,
5年前
, 90F
09/05 12:07, 90F
由於只能用手機修文的關係，政黑那篇恕我晚點能用電腦再貼過去修正。
推
09/05 12:55,
5年前
, 91F
09/05 12:55, 91F
推
09/05 14:05,
5年前
, 92F
09/05 14:05, 92F
※ 編輯: kinomon (42.74.130.25), 09/05/2018 14:36:20
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