Re: [外電] Twenty-three guys better than Wang? …

看板CMWang作者uilnivla (soulone)時間17年前 (2008/04/08 20:14)推噓13(13推 0噓 9→)

留言22則, 16人參與討論串3/4 (看更多)

出處：http://0rz.tw/073S9 ※ 引述《wesun (統一獅王重返榮耀^^)》之銘言： : 網路上看到到的...不知道有沒有PO過 : 我不會縮網址 sorry= =" : http://www.bugsandcranks.com/new-york-yankees/twenty-three-guys-better-than-wang-no-chance/ : My post about whether or not Chien-Ming Wang is an ace seems to have stirred up the passions on both sides. : ‘Chad’ goes so far as to take up my challenge to name 10 better starters — with stats — by dropping 23 names with ERA as his sole piece of evidence. Let’s be serious here and take Chad’s entire list, from my perspective, and I’ll tell you which pitcher I think is better right now. 之前我的一篇有關於王到底是不是個 Ace 的文章似乎讓支持反對兩方都很有意見啊， Chad 提出了 23 位投手比王好的論點，並且附上數據，就讓我們來看一看吧。以下是名單： : Here is the list. : 1. Jake Peavy : 2. Johan Santana : 3. Josh Beckett : 4. CC Sabathia : 5. Erik Bedard : 6. Brandon Webb : 7. John Smoltz : 8. Dan Haren : 9. Chris Young : 10. Cole Hamels : 11. John Lackey : 12. Gil Meche : 13. Justin Verlander : 14. Matt Cain : 15. Mark Buerhle : 16. Oliver Perez : 17. Scott Kazmir : 18. Kelvim Escobar : 19. Tim Hudson : 20. Chad Billingsley : 21. Roy Oswalt : 22. Fausto Carmona : 23. Brad Penny : Now let’s go one-by-one and break it down, looking at their numbers from 2006 and 2007. Those are, in fairness to Wang, his only full major league seasons. 現在讓我們來一個一個看看這些投手是不是真的比王好，我們看的是 2006 年以及 2007 年的數據，因為這是王僅有的完整球季。 : 1. Jake Peavy vs. Wang — 19-6 with a terrific 2.54 ERA last season. But, 11-14 with a worse than league average 4.09 ERA in 2006. Oh, and in two post-season starts, an 0-2 record with a 12.10 ERA. Wang in those two years is 38-13, having lost fewer games in two seasons that Peavy did in one. Advantage: Wang Peavy 在 2007 年 19-6，2.54 ERA，不過 2006 年則是 11-14，比聯盟平均差的 4.09 ERA，嗯，然後在季後賽兩場先發，0-2，12.10 ERA，王在這兩年間則是 38-13，兩年輸的比 Peavy 一年輸的還要少。王勝出 : 2. Johan Santana — The Mets’ prized acquisition is clearly the best left-handed starter in the game (sorry, CC Sabathia). He has won 34 games in the past two seasons, and at least 15 in each of his four years as a starter. I’m not going to argue here, because Santan’s presence would make Wang a No. 2. One thing I will say, though, is a check of Santana’s post-season record reveals only a 1-4 career mark with a 3.97 ERA. So, regular season greatness does not always translate to post-season success. : Advantage: Santana 梅子花大錢買來的山大王毫無疑問是最好的左投手(抱歉了 C.C. Sabathia)。前兩年他贏了 34 場，擔任先發的前四年每年至少有 15 勝，我不否認，有山大王在的時候王只能是個二號投手，不過我要指出，山大王生涯季後賽的成績是 1-4 3.97 ERA，所以季賽猛的不一定季後賽也猛。山大王勝出 : 3. Josh Beckett — The only question there has ever been with Beckett has been health. He has answered that the last two seasons, pitching 200 or more innings each season. Beckett won 20 last year, but remember that he did post a 5.01 ERA in 2006. Still, his post-season work — 6-0 in 10 starts with a miniscule 1.73 ERA — separates him. Advantage: Beckett Beckett 唯一的問題是他的健康問題，不過前兩季他似乎解決了這個問題，每季超過 200 局的出賽。去年他贏了 20 場，不過 2006 年他的 ERA 稍高 5.01。真正讓 Beckett 厲害的是他的季後賽成績，10 次先發 6-0 1.73 ERA。 Beckett 勝出 : 4. CC Sabathia — 19-7 last season with a 3.21 ERA while winning the Cy Young Award, but only 7 games over .500 in the three seasons prior to that. Oh, and what did CC do in the playoffs last season? A 5.40 ERA against the Yankees and 10.45 in two starts against Boston. Again, regular season success means nothing in the post-season. Sabathia pitched 241 innings last season, the first time since 2002 he topped the 200 mark. I need to see him do it again. Advantage: None C.C. Sabathia 去年的賽揚 19-7 3.21 ERA，不過在 2004 年到 2006 年的期間只比五成勝率多贏了七場。然後 C.C. 在去年的季後賽丟得怎麼樣呢？對北佬 5.40 ERA 然後對赤襪先發兩場是 10.45 ERA，去年出賽 241 局是他自從 2002 年以來第一次超過 200 局的出賽，我需要看到他能夠維持這個表現。平手 : 5. Erik Bedard — Bedard is a nice pitcher, and I give him tons of credit for going 28-16 over two seasons with the bumbling Orioles. His 3.16 ERA pitching largely in that bandbox in Baltimore — almost 1.5 runs below league average — is impressive. But, Bedard has never pitched 200 innings in a season and you can’t be an ace if you haven’t proven you can carry the workload — which he hasn’t. Also, despite his nice numbers can you name a meaningful game the guy has ever pitched in. Let’s see what : he does this season with Seattle before we even consider Bedard for ‘ace’ status. Advantage: Wang Bedard 是個好投手，尤其是在飛不起來的金鳥還能兩年有 28-16 的表現。他的 3.16 ERA 讓人非常印象深刻，比聯盟平均還低了 1.5 分，不過他從來沒有在單季出賽超過 200 局，一個 Ace 必須要能夠吃局數，還有，儘管數字漂亮，但是 Bedard 從來沒有投出過任何一場令人印象深刻的球賽，讓我們看看他今年對上水兵的表現再來考慮他是不是個 Ace 吧。王勝出 : 6. Brandon Webb — The reigning NL Cy Young Award winner is a sinkerballer and maybe the most similar guy to Wang on this entire list. Webb has won 34 games the past two seasons and has pitched at least 229 innings each of the past three seasons. He strikes out more hitters than Wang and gives up fewer hits, but I would like to see how he would fare against American League lineups. For now, though, I’d give him a slight edge. Advantage: Webb 國聯賽揚的 Webb 是個沉球投手，也是這整份名單上跟王最像的一位，前兩年有 34 勝場，前三年每年至少 229 局的出賽，三振比王多，被安打比王少，不過我還是很想看看 Webb 對上美聯打線的表現，這邊我認為 Webb 要好一些。 Webb 勝出 : 7. John Smoltz –The Braves’ righty has been a great pitcher for a long time, there is no arguing that. He has won 30 gams combined and pitched more than 200 innings in each of the past two seasons. He has been a terrific post-season pitcher as well, going 12-12 with a 2.65 ERA and four saves in 40 appearances. If I was choosing someone to build around I would take Wang. If I need someone to start one game, there is probably no one else I would rather give the ball to than Smoltz, who will soon be 41. : Advantage: Smoltz 老史投得好，投得久，沒什麼爭議，前兩年有 30 勝，每年至少 200 局的出賽，季後賽更是漂亮的 12-12 2.65 ERA，加上 40 次上場有 4 救援。如果要我選一個人為中心來重建球隊，我會選擇王，如果要我選擇一個人來先發，我會選 41 歲的老史。老史勝出 : 8. Dan Haren — When was this guy ever the ace of any staff he has been on? He’s certainly not the ace this year in Arizona, so I’m not sure he should even be in this conversation. His 15-9 record last season was the most games he has ever won, and the first time in his career he has finished more than two games above .500. He’s a good pitcher and an innings-eater, having pitched at least 217 innings in each of his three full seasons, but that’s all. Advantage: Wang 這傢伙什麼時候曾經是哪個球隊的 Ace 了？他今年也肯定不會是小蛇的 Ace，所以我不知道為什麼他會出現在這份名單上，去年的 15-9 是他生涯勝場數最多的一年，也是第一次他的勝場數超過五成勝率 2 場以上，他可以吃局數，生涯三個球季每年至少出賽 217 局以上，不過也就這樣子了。王勝出 : 9. Chris Young — Laughable that he is on this list. Won 9 games last year and has never won more than 12 in his career. Nice 3.12 ERA, but no better than a two or three on any staff, anywhere. On the Yankees he would be third behind Wang and Andy Pettitte, and maybe fourth behind Phil Hughes. Advantage: Wang Young 出現在這份名單上還滿好笑的，去年只有 9 勝而生涯最好也只有 12 勝， 3.12 ERA 是還不錯不過也大概就是個二號或三號，在任何一個球隊都是，放在北佬他可能擔任第三號先發，在王以及老派後面，甚至排到 Hughes 後面的第四號。王勝出 : 10. Cole Hamels — Hamels is headed for a terrific career. Yet, he has had one full big-league season and has yet to pitch 200 innings. Is he even the Phillies ace, or would that title go to Brett Myers who is back in the rotation after spending last year in the bullpen? Advantage: Wang Hamels 有個光明的未來，不過去年才是他第一個完整的球季，也還沒有出賽超過 200 局，今年他會是費城人的 Ace 嗎？還是去年待在牛棚今年回到先發輪值的 Brett Myers 會是費城人的 Ace？王勝出 : 11. John Lackey — Dominant last season (19-9, 3.01 ERA), but more like Pettitte than a true No. 1. He’s been good for a while, but had never won more than 14 games prior to last season. I need to see him do it again before I call him a true ace. Advantage: Wang 去年擁有很好的宰制力 19-9 3.01 ERA，不過 Lackey 其實比較像老派而不像個真正的 Ace，在去年之前生涯最好也不過是 14 勝，他得要再來一次像去年的好表現我才會認為他是個真正的 Ace。王勝出 : 12. Gil Meche — Like Chris Young, I find it incomprehensible that anyone can think Meche is a better pitcher than Wang. Won 15 games in 2003, but hasn’t won more than 11 since. Went 9-13 last year. I know he hasn’t pitched for good teams, but this is a guy with a 4.47 ERA in 8 seasons. He might be the best starter the Royals have, but you can hardly call him an ace. Advantage: Wang 跟 Chris Young 的情形一樣，Gil Meche 是要怎麼跟王比？2003 年有 15 勝，不過之後從來沒有超過 11 勝，去年則是 9-13。我知道他所在的球隊比較弱，不過這傢伙生涯 8 季的 ERA 是 4.47，也許他是皇家最好的先發，不過你很難稱呼他是個 Ace 吧。王勝出 : 13. Justin Verlander — This guy is a young Smoltz, a flamethrower who can be absolutely dominant when he is right. He went 35-15 the past two seasons, and at 25 is still growing into what will likely be a great career. Topped 200 innings for the first time last season (201). He has not been successful in the post-season yet, starting four games and pitching to a 5.82 ERA. Right now, he and Wang are probably equal. Verlander, though, is still getting better. Advantage: Verlander 這傢伙是老史年輕時候的翻版，純正的火球派，當他狀況好的時候擁有絕對的宰制能力，前兩年的成績是 35-15 今年 25 歲並且持續在成長當中，去年 201 局出賽是第一次超過 200 局，季後賽的表現則是不怎麼樣，去年四場先發 5.82 ERA，Verlander 應該可以和王打個平手，不過他還在進步中。 Verlander 勝出 : 14. Matt Cain — Are you freakin’ kidding me? A guy who went 7-16 last season and has a 22-29 career record? Ridiculous! Advantage: Wang 你他媽開玩笑嗎?!去年 7-16 生涯 22-29 的傢伙?!什麼鬼?!!!!! 王勝出 : 15. Mark Buerhle – A couple of years ago this might have been an argument. In 2004 and 2005 Buerhle was an ace. He has fallen a long way, though, going 22-22 the past two seasons and seeing his innings drop from 245 in 2004 to 201 last year. Buerhle is a middle of the rotation guy at this point in his career. Advantage: Wang 如果在前幾年的話還有得討論，在 2004 和 2005 年 Buerhle 的確是個 Ace，不過他現在的狀況已經下滑很多，前兩年只有 22-22 的成績，投球局數也從 2004 年的 245 局下滑到去年的 201 局。現在的 Buerhle 只能是個輪值表中段的投手。王勝出 : 16. Oliver Perez — When I stop laughing maybe I’ll comment on this ………… OK, 15-10, 3.64 ERA last year. A nice year when there were no expectations for him, but he’s not an ace. When the Pirates thought he was he pitched himself back to AAA. Better than Wang? If you think so I feel sorry for you. Advantage: Wang 等一下，先讓我笑完。 ok，去年 15-10 3.64 ERA，當走船壞人以為這傢伙要待在 AAA 投球的時候，這樣的成績可以算是相當不錯了，不過如果你覺得他比王要好的話，我為你感到難過。王勝出 : 17. Scott Kazmir — Now this is a guy who COULD be an ace. He won a career high 13 games with a 3.48 ERA and worked more innings than Wang (206.7), but he is still young and still has a lot to prove. Included in that is whether or not he can stay healthy, carry a staff and pitch well in meaningful, pressure games. So far, he’s done none of those things. Advantage: Wang 總算有個可能是 Ace 的傢伙可以討論了，去年投出了生涯新高的 13 勝 3.48 ERA，投球局數 206 2/3 比王還多，不過他還年輕還有待證明，他得要保持健康，在壓力下維持好表現，目前為止他還沒做到以上這些。王勝出 : 18. Kelvim Escobar — Had a breakout season last year (18-7, 3.40 ERA), but prior to that was 90-90 in the first 10 seasons of his career. Great stuff, but one good season does not make him an ace. Advantage: Wang 去年有 18-7 3.40 ERA 的好表現，不過在此之前的 10 季是 90-90，有很好的資質，不過一年的好表現不代表你就是個 Ace。王勝出 : 19. Tim Hudson — This guy ‘was’ an ace for years in Oakland. He went 16-10 with a 3.33 ERA for Atlanta in 2007, his best season since 2003. Chews up a lot of innings and is a very good pitcher. To me, a lot like Haren or even Mike Mussina in his prime. Very good, I want him on my staff. But, I’m not sure he’s a No. 1 any longer. Advantage: Wang 這傢伙曾經是運動家好幾年的 Ace，去年在斧頭幫的 16-10 3.33 ERA 是他自從 2003 年以來的最好表現，吃的局數也多，我認為在他的顛峰期可以跟 Haren 或老穆來比較，很好的投手，不過我不覺得他還能有那樣的好表現。王勝出 : 20. Chad Billingsley — This guy has tremendous ability and might someday be an ace, but it’s too early for him to be in this conversation. It would like putting the Yankees’ Hughes in here, and at this point neither of them belong. Advantage: Wang 這傢伙有很好的能力而且將來有一天可能會成為 Ace，不過現在要討論他還太早，就好像把北佬的 Hughes 放在這邊討論一樣，他們兩個都還太年輕。王勝出 : 21. Roy Oswalt — This guy is an ace, but last year pitched his fewest innings (212) and won his fewest games (14) since 2003. He is a guy who doesn’t fear big games and has a 3-2 record in post-season with a 3.66 ERA. This is a tough call for me, but based on how long he has been doing it and the fact that he is still at — or very near — his peak, I would go with the Astro ace. Advantage: Oswalt 這位是個真正的 Ace，不過去年的 14 勝 212 局出賽是他從 2003 年以來最差的表現， Oswalt 不會懼怕大場面而且在季後賽的成績是 3-2 3.66 ERA，這很難比不過基於他已經維持長時間的好表現，而且仍然保持在他的顛峰，我會投 Oswalt 一票。 Oswalt 勝出 : 22. Fausto Carmona — Carmona was tremendous last season in his first full year in the big leagues, going 19-8 with a 3.06 ERA in 215 innings. If he can do it again then I’ll say he is Wang’s class. But not yet. Advantage: Wang 去年是他的第一個完整球季，19-8 3.06 ERA，215 局的好表現，如果他可以再來一次的話我會說他跟王同級，不過現在還沒。王勝出 : 23. Brad Penny — Penny has gone 32-13 the past two seasons. He did, however, post a 4.33 ERA in 2006 and that’s not an ‘ace’ ERA. Like with Carmona, I need to see another year like 2007, when he posted a 3.03 ERA and pitched 208 innings before I call him a real ace. Advantage: Wang 前兩年的成績是 32-13，不過在 2006 年的 4.33 ERA 有點太高不像個 Ace，我需要看到 Penny 再來一次 2007 年 3.03 ERA 的好表現才能確定他是個 Ace。王勝出 : So, of the 23 starting pitchers ‘Chad’ wants to put ahead of Wang I will give you five, and call Sabathia a ‘push.’ That doesn’t mean there are only 5 guys better than Wang (Roy Halladay, for example, wasn’t on this list). : If you are fair about it, though, and really look at the numbers you have to admit Wang ranks pretty darn high on the list of best starting pitchers in the league. : An ace? Definitely. : Arguments, anyone? Let’s hear ‘em. 所以啦，Chad 提出了 23 為先發投手他認為比王好，我覺得只有五個是真的比較好，加上 C.C. 算是平手，不過這不代表只有五位比王好的先發投手，比如說， Roy Halladay 就不在這份名單上。如果你客觀的來看，並且仔細比較數據，王的表現在先發投手裡面可以算是非常非常的好。絕對是個 Ace。有問題請舉手。註：這篇文章的作者真是對小王有著滿滿的愛啊，還滿歡樂的。 -- ▄▄ ▄▄ ▄▄ 衝啊!!! 上吧!!巴比倫勇者們!! ▄▄ ﹨● ╴● ＞ ﹨● ∕ ▄▄ ︵█ █ █ ▄▄ ︶＜ ╲ ╱ ︶ φggway2800 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 220.131.97.5

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