[外絮] uThermal訪談

看板StarCraft作者hc1118 (人˙非)時間7年前 (2016/08/30 20:59)推噓17(17推 0噓 3→)

留言20則, 17人參與討論串1/1

來源:TL:http://goo.gl/pOfnA2 __________________________________ uThermal is one of 2016's biggest breakout stars, winning IEM Shanghai to become the first foreigner Terran to win a major title in years. He's also one of the biggest beneficiaries of the drastic changes in WCS 2016. I talked to him about the pros and cons of the new, region-locked WCS, and how it could be improved going forward. *Interview has been edited for clarity. uThermal是2016年進步的最突出的明星之一，他在IEM上海站獲得了冠軍，這使他成為了這一年來第一個獲得大賽級別冠軍的非韓人族選手。他也是在2016年有著極端變動的WCS 系統下的最大獲益者之一。我跟他談了贊成跟反對WCS鎖區的理由，以及這個系統可以如何改進。為了(讓訪談)清楚起見，這個訪談有編輯過。 Wax: Now that WCS 2016 has played out for almost an entire competitive year, how do you feel about it? I guess the answer is a bit obvious… Waxangel:WCS2016年度幾乎要比完一整個賽季了，你感覺如何?，我想答案很明顯… uthermal: Well for me, it’s good. The thing is, it feels kind of extreme in a way, because the WCS players make a lot more money than the Koreans now. I looked at the Aligulac.com earlier, and I think the top five earners of 2016 are all WCS (link to rankings). uthermal:對我來說這很棒。某種程度來說，這很極端，因為參加WCS的選手現在比(留在) 韓國選手賺了更多的錢。我之前有查了Aligulac，2016年賺的最多的5個人都是參加WCS的 (2016獎金榜http://goo.gl/S76jBU)。 I think they went from another extreme to this extreme. Because before, it was pretty much impossible to be a progamer as a foreigner. I think I made around $10,000 a year before, which was pretty terrible. And now I make over $50,000, so it’s a really big difference. I think it’s good, but they messed up some stuff in the process. 我想他們(暴雪)從另一個極端走到了這一個極端。之前對非韓選手來說，當個電競選手是不太可能的事。我想我之前大概每年賺1萬鎂，這是個很糟的數字。但我現在賺了超過 5萬鎂，所以這真是一個很大的差別。我想這樣很好，但他們(暴雪)在過程中搞砸了一些事。 The worst thing is they had events for Koreans for so long, and then they region locked it after five years. So there are a bunch of Koreans who were living off foreign tournaments, and suddenly their careers just died. 最糟的是他們讓韓國人長久以來都能參加比賽，5年後(突然)就實施鎖區制度。這讓很多原來依靠國外賽事生活的韓國選手，突然他們的生涯就完蛋了。 So even besides the one big championship you got at IEM, you’re saying in general there’s a lot more chances to pick up money from high finishes. W:所以你除了奪得像IEM上海站這樣的大比賽冠軍，還有很多機會在其他比賽表現出色來賺錢。 (譯註:原文用粗體/一般來區分作者/uthermal，以下我用W代表作者，用U代表uthermal) Yeah, because last year and the years before, going to a DreamHack was like, you go because you’re a progamer and it’s your duty. But in reality you knew it was pretty much a waste of time. There’s like thirty-five Koreans and you’re probably going to lose to one of them in the Ro32 or something. There was almost no point in going, except for team exposure and the off chance you get a lucky bracket and get top eight. And now, every foreigner is super tryhard to get to every event. Not everyone can win, but everyone has a chance at top four, top eight. There’s actually a point in going to events now. U:對的，因為今年以前，參加DreamHack就只是因為你是個職業選手，這是你的義務。你知道事實上那就是在浪費時間。當時大概有35個韓國選手，你可能在32強或其他階段就輸給他們。除了讓隊伍能夠曝光之外，你幾乎沒有動力參加。如果你運氣好點有個好籤表，你可以晉級八強。但現在每個非韓選手都超級努力要參加每個比賽，不是每個人都能贏，但每個人都有機會晉級四強或八強，這是參加比賽很重要的一點。 If everyone is trying hard, do you think everyone has become better? Do you notice people practicing harder and getting better? W:如果每個人都很努力，你認為每個人有變強了嗎?你有注意到選手們練得更多變的更強了嗎? Yeah, I’m sure people are better. You can also see a lot of the players who weren’t that motivated before—Nerchio is a good example. He was really not that good in HotS, and then in LotV the game became better and the system allowed him chances. Now he’s trying pretty hard and he’s gone really far. U:是的，我很確定選手們更好了。你也可以看看其他很多以前沒那麼有動力的選手， Nerchio是個好例子。他在蟲心不是那麼好，在虛空，他表現得出色的多，比賽系統也給他機會。他非常努力，現在排得很前面了。 It’s kind of similar with me. Last year, I had been trying really hard for a long time. When all your effort results in a single top eight, and some Ro32s and whatever... ...it really felt like it was pointless to practice back then. 我也是一樣，我先前也努力了很長一段時間。但當你的努力只換來少許的8強或是一些 32強時，比賽後我真的感覺沒有動力練習。 Now, for example, Elazer and Drogo and all the players who have a chance for BlizzCon—and me and all the top players—are trying really hard. I do think we’re better than ever, for sure. 舉例來說，Elazer跟PtitDrogo，還有其他所有有機會參加年終賽的選手，包含我跟其他頂尖選手也是，我們真的都非常努力。我很確信我們比以前更好了。 Like, I read Harstem’s interview (link to interview), and I talked about the interview with some other progamers, and everyone thought it was complete bullshit what he said. Made more money even though he was worse? But everyone thinks he’s like ten times better than he ever was. Maybe he feels that way himself, but he was just a Ro32 player like me, previously, and now he’s a double champion. He’s so much better, it shocked all of us that he had that perception. Really, all of us think everyone is better pretty much, except for like a select few like Harstem. 我讀了Harstem的那篇訪談，也跟其他幾位選手討論了那篇，每個人都覺得他說的是狗屎。賺得更多但變得更爛?但所有人都認為他比之前強了十倍。也許他就是這麼想的，但他之前像我一樣，只是個32強選手，現在他拿了兩座冠軍，他變得這麼好，我們都很訝異他會有那樣的想法。我們每個人都覺得自己變強了許多，除了那天選之人Harstem。 (譯註:Harstem的訪談可以參考小弟的文章 #1NatF8Lk http://goo.gl/iLVFJZ) If you look at the main, Blizzard WCS tournament itself, it’s not THAT different from the previous WCS Premier Leagues in terms of the number of Koreans competing. Do you think the main WCS tournament has changed much? W:如果你觀察暴雪自己辦的WCS的比賽，就韓國選手的數目來說，跟之前WCS Premier Leagues沒有那麼大的不同，你認為WCS比賽有改變很多嗎? No, definitely not. That’s what’s surprised me the most out of the comments. Because I read Reddit and TeamLiquid a lot, and I read all the comments. There's a comment I see sometimes. For example, when ShowTime won in Tours(link to bracket)—a lot of people acted like it wasn’t that big of a deal compared to previous years, because it’s region locked now. I feel the tournaments are exactly the same. U:沒有，很明顯沒有。這是最讓我驚訝的一點。因為我看了很多Reddit跟TeamLiquid的討論，我讀了全部的討論。我有時會看到一種評論，比如說，當ShowTime贏得春季賽冠軍時(http://goo.gl/as7220)，相較於之前幾年，很多人表現的就像那沒什麼了不起，就因為現在鎖區了，但我認為比賽還是一樣的。 Yes, there was one point when WCS was harder, it was when the six Koreans were living in Germany, MC, YoDa, First, etc. That’s when it was a bit harder. 有個觀點是當年WCS比賽時，有6個韓國選手(MC, YoDa, First等)住在德國，那個比賽才具有挑戰性。 But for example, when Lilbow won WCS (link to bracket), it was the same, or even a bit easier than now. Because Polt and Hydra were already there, and the other Koreans in that season were Stardust and Jaedong, who were basically like foreigners in level. They were not seen as top players the last year. 但以去年Lilbow獲得WCS第三季冠軍時來說(http://goo.gl/97rMjV)，那也是一樣的，甚至比現在更簡單。因為Polt跟海皇已經有年終賽資格了，其他韓國選手就只有 Stardust跟Jaedong，他們的實力就跟非韓選手一樣，他們在去年並不被認為是有實力的選手。 And I think now, it's a little bit harder with the addition of TRUE. So I think the WCS main tournaments are pretty much exactly the same. 然後現在因為有了TRUE的加入，比賽變的困難一些，所以我認為WCS大比賽其實是差不多的。 So what the region lock has really changed for you guys, is your chances at third party tournaments like IEM, DreamHack, etc. W:所以對你們來說，鎖區真正的改變是，你們有更多機會參加像IEM, DreamHack 這樣的比賽。 Last year, it was literally… let me pull up my results (link to results). U:去年，不誇張…讓我給你們看看我的成績吧(http://goo.gl/VODzH0) At offline events, I would pretty much lose in the first or second round of everything. I went to gfinity, lost to sacri twice in the group stage, the first round of the tournament. At DreamHack Tours, I lost in the group stages to PartinG, and in the Ro32 against TRUE. In IEM I lost in the Ro8 against PartinG. And in the gfinity after that I lost in the first round to MyungSiK. 在線下賽，我在第一輪或第二輪就會被淘汰了。我參加了gfinity, 第一輪的小組賽輸給了sacri兩次。DreamHack Tours我在小組賽輸給了PartinG，在32強輸給TRUE。在IEM，我在八強輸給PartinG，之後的gfinity我在第一輪輸給了MyungSiK。 It’s pretty important that you build results to be better. It’s kind of hard to explain that part, but if you’re stuck in the Ro32 because of the Koreans, you can’t grow to become a better player. You need to be able to get further in tournaments to learn more and do better. If you just lose in the Ro32 all the time, there’s no room to grow ever. Before, pretty much all the foreigners who did well were the people who played in WoL early on, and already had experience from when tournaments weren’t as hard. But for new people, it was super hard to break out. Every time you lose in the Ro32, even against a Korean, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good player. All you did was lose in the first or second round. And now, a lot of the players that were just Ro32 players got better and are now champions like me, Drogo and Harstem. 讓結果更好是很重要的。這很難解釋，但如果你老是在32強輸給韓國人，你沒辦法成長為更好的選手。你需要在比賽中晉級，學得更多，做得更好。如果你總是只停留在 32強，你不會成長。之前在自由之翼時，有很多非韓選手做的很棒，他們在不是那麼困難的比賽中學了很多經驗。但對新人來說，要突破超級難，每次你在32強輸掉，就算是對上韓國選手，你還是會覺得你不是個好選手，你所做的就只是在第一輪或第二輪敗退。但現在，很多那些以前只能打到32強的選手，像是我、PtitDrogo跟Harstem ，變得更好，拿到了冠軍。 Once you get that level of results, I think you can put up a fight against Koreans, because you feel like you’ve achieved something and you know how to play further in tournaments, under pressure. 一旦你達到那種層級的結果，我認為你可以挑戰韓國選手了，因為你感覺你到達了某種程度，而且你知道如何在比賽的壓力下發揮得更好。 How has this year changed your outlook on progaming going forward? W:你對電子競技未來的看法，在今年有什麼改變? I always felt like I could continue progaming. I probably would have started my studies a bit earlier if it was the same story. If you’re like seventeen— I think that was the first year I got into WCS—and all your friends are just working in the supermarket and you make $10,000 in one year, it’s nice. Once you’re like twenty, twenty-one and you’re still making like $10,000 a year, you’re like "I guess I’m gonna have to do something else." And now we’re actually making money, it doesn’t feel bad to continue progaming for a bit. U:我一直認為我可以繼續當電子競技選手。(但)如果情況相同的話，也許我會更早一點開始我的學業。你17歲時(我想那是我第一年參加WCS的年紀)你的朋友只能在超市上班，而你已經可以一年賺1萬鎂了，這樣很好。一旦當你20歲或21歲了，你還是一年賺1 萬鎂，你會想:我猜我得找點其他事來做了。現在我確實賺到錢了，繼續當一陣子的電競選手好像還不賴。 What could have been better about WCS 2016? What changes should be made next year? W:2016WCS如何才能更好?明年該採取什麼樣的改變? We actually all had a long chat with Blizzard about this at DreamHack Montreal. I think the biggest thing was that the formats of tournaments were absolutely terrible. U:就這個議題，實際上，在夏季賽時我們跟暴雪談了很久。我想最重要的，是現在比賽的形式絕對是很糟糕。 The single elimination Ro32? W:你是說32強開始單淘汰賽? Yeah. Here’s a good example. U:是，我有些好例子。 TRUE won a single elimination tournament, beating two players who were top eight in WCS points. And I won a single elimination tournament beating four players who were in the top eight. His format wasn’t harder, it wasn’t a harder tournament. But his just happened to have more points points and money. I think I actually won a harder tournament than TRUE did, but he just got lucky and won the right tournament. TRUE獲得的冠軍，打敗了2個在WCS積分排名前八的選手(譯註:POLT跟SNUTE)。我獲得的冠軍，(可是)打敗了4個在WCS積分排名前八的選手(譯註SNUTE、Elazer、viOLet、 Neeb )。TRUE的形式不是那麼困難，(對他來說)不是個困難的比賽，但他獲得的積分跟獎金比較多。我認為事實上我贏的比賽比TRUE困難，他只是比較好運贏得了對的比賽。 (譯註:常威這篇訪談在TL討論非常熱烈，後來常威自己還寫了篇補充，我在最後面會翻，根本火上加油。大家戰制度，戰態度，到今天為止，在TL上已經超過480人回覆，Harstem 那篇才77個人回。) I think that was the biggest problem. There has to be some way to distinguish the tournaments. Everything is single elimination. We told Adrian (of Blizzard esports) that if you had that format at IEM or DreamHack Open, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. But what does a WCS tournament even mean if it ’s a single elimination bracket? So first of all, we suggested they take a different format for sure. Most of us—I think twenty of the thirty-two players, including the Chinese players, were there—most of us agreed, the DreamHack Winter format was really good, the six man round robin groups. 我認為這是最大的問題。需要把比賽作一番分類。(現在)每一個都是單淘汰。我們跟 Adrian (暴雪電競部門)說你們在IEM或DreamHack推這種制度就算了，但為什麼WCS的大賽也要採單淘汰呢?我們建議他們改採不同的形式，我們大部分的人，我想(參加夏季賽的)32人中的20個吧，包含中國選手都在那兒，我們大部分都同意DreamHack Winter 那樣的六人小組循環(譯註:http://goo.gl/97lNH8)是很棒的賽制。 Just imagine—there’s only three WCS tournaments a year—imagine if a Dota Major had a single elimination bracket, or the International. Just imagine how dumb that would be. That was really the biggest problem everyone had. 想想看(一整年只有三場WCS大賽)如果Dota的大比賽或國際賽也是用單淘汰賽，那會有多愚蠢。這是我們最大的問題。 Besides that we talked a bit about player conditions. Some events don’t even have food for the players, some events the chairs are terrible, just general stuff like that. Blizzard has requirements regarding player conditions if you want to hold a WCS tournament like DH, and we told them they could require better conditions. For example, at DreamHack Montreal, if you played on the B-stream, you were kinda fucked because the chairs there were so low your wrists would just hurt all the time. On the main stream, and also the B-stream, the tables were super shaky and the conditions were not that good for most of the tournament. It wouldn’t be as bad if it was a DH open, but for a WCS tournament, stuff like that has to be on point. 除此之外，我們也談到了一些選手碰到的環境問題。有些比賽選手們沒東西吃，有些比賽椅子很糟，一些像這樣的庶務。如果你想舉辦像DH這樣的比賽，有WCS積分的，暴雪對設備是有要求的，我們告訴他們可以要求更好的條件，舉例來說，夏季賽(在蒙特婁)，如果你是在副舞台比，你會覺得很幹，因為椅子太低了，你的手腕一直都會痛。在主舞台，副舞台也是，桌子超級晃，比賽的環境沒有其他大部分比賽的水準。如果是DH的公開賽，這不會那麼糟，但這是WCS的大賽，這樣的情況就是出包了。 But in terms of the big picture, you’re happy with this year. W:但總體而言，你今年還是很快樂的。 I guess so. I think it’s pretty good. Like, the idea of WCS is good, but the execution was not that great, I think. There’s a lot of small issues here and there. The planning of the events is always pretty bad. Blizzard knows dates of qualifiers and stuff like that way before we get to know. It’s not like they know one month before and we find out three weeks before. Blizzard has a schedule with all their events and qualifiers and stuff. For example, for the qualifiers for the last WCS in Montreal, Blizzard knew the dates three months before, and they told us like one week before. The scheduling is really not that good. U:我猜是吧。我想這很棒。就像WCS的想法很好，但執行上沒那麼棒。一直都有一些小問題。比賽的規劃總是很糟。暴雪比我們早知道資格賽的時間等等訊息。這不像是他們1 個月前而我們是3周前知道(這麼單純)。暴雪有他們所有比賽的日程跟通過資格賽的人等等資訊。舉例來說，最近一場的WCS夏季賽，暴雪三個月前就知道日期了，但他們好像一周前才通知我們這些通過資格賽的選手。日程安排真的不是那麼好。 Okay I think we're reaching the end of most reader's attention span. Final comments? Anything funny? W:我想我們到大部分讀者注意力的極限了。最後有沒有什麼要說的?有什麼有趣的? I can’t really think of anything, I woke up not long ago and my brain is kind of fried right now. U:我沒辦法想到什麼，我才剛起床，我的大腦現在就像炸開了一樣。 Always nice talking to you. W:跟你聊天總是很耐斯。 ___________________________________ http://goo.gl/GwGGce 常威自己的補充: Alright, I usually don't argue about topics like this but I just wanted to clarify some stuff : 我通常不會再這樣的主題下提出爭論，但我想澄清一部份: 1. I can't imagine why any 'foreigner' would lie just to try and keep the current WCS system for longer. As you can probably imagine no one would become a sc2 progamer to make the big money. If my opinion about the current WCS doesn't match with yours, it doesn't mean im not being honest. 1.我沒辦法想像有任何理由一個非韓選手會去說謊，就為了讓現在的WCS系統繼續下去。你們也許可以想像沒有SC2電競選手可以賺大錢。如果我對現在的WCS觀點跟你們的不一樣，不代表我不誠實。 2. Even though Koreans are clearly better players, it does NOT mean foreigners are just lazily playing starcraft 2 once a week just coming in for the quick wcs welfare fame and cash grab. I did not quit my studies 3 years ago while I wasn't even that good ( a huge risk ) to play hearthstone and overwatch the entire day, most of us actually do try hard to become the best. Many people don't understand you can't just randomly go to Korea and practice with the best all day, no matter how much of a wonder story it sounds like. Many people can't afford to do that, probably not be able to get in a good teamhouse, while the ladder is not even that strong because of proleague (it really wasn't that challenging while I was playing from Shanghai) aswell as being 5 million miles from your home, family and friends. Yep, as much as you guys like to believe that Koreans are better than non-Koreans PURELY based off of hard work, its simply not true as they have had a large advantage ever since the start of sc2, and even early broodwar, about 15 years before now. 2.即使韓國選手很明顯的是比較好的選手，這不代表非韓選手是懶惰的，一周只玩一次 SC2，靠著WCS福利獲取名利。3年前我沒有停止我的學業，也沒有那麼厲害可以玩爐石或鬥陣整天(這樣風險很大)。事實上我們大部分的人都很拼想要成為最好的。許多人不了解，你沒辦法隨意的就跑去韓國，跟最好的選手練習整天，雖然這聽起來是個很棒的故事。很多人沒辦法負擔這樣做，甚至沒辦法有機會在好的訓練室練習。因為proleague，天梯強度不是那麼強(當我在上海時，我真的感受到天梯不是那麼有挑戰性)，另外，離家5百萬哩遠也是(個困難)。你們很多人相信韓國選手比非韓選手強僅僅是因為努力，但那不是事實，他們是從SC2一開始就有很大的優勢，甚至是怒火早期，大約15年前就是如此了。 3. Most foreigners understand the points about foreigners and koreans and agree with them atleast a little bit ( we know winning a dreamhack open now means less than winning a dreamhack open in 2014 or 2015 ). No one here is pretending we have suddenly become literal gods and that is why we win championships. All the top players in Foreignland are still working hard and trying to win bigger championships with good koreans one day, anyone who dreams about winning stuff in starcraft2 and is still playing as a progamer, would clearly rather have a top finish at blizzcon than winning a dreamhack open. Most of us are just sad with the disrespect we players ( and community figures ) get from the community, we're really not as stupid and ignorant as some of you guys seem to think. 3.大部分的非韓選手了解非韓選手與韓國選手的不同，我們知道現在獲得DH冠軍的意義不如在2014或2015獲得DH冠軍。沒有人假裝我們突然變強了所以我們可以奪冠。所有非韓頂尖選手依然努力，試著在某一天贏得有好的韓國選手參加的大賽冠軍，任何一個夢想在 SC2賽事奪冠的電競選手，都想要在嘉年華上奪冠而不是在DH上奪冠。我們大部分只是對我們選手(還有社群領袖)在社群上得到的無禮對待感到難過。我們不是你們有些人想的那麼笨、那麼無知。 Clarifications : 1. My earlier comment about us being better players now, is not because of practicing against worse players rather than better players, but because there is much more motivation to practice now due to more opportunities, theres a big difference! 2. I didn't mean that dreamhacks/IEMs etc. are harder now than before, it was purely about the WCS circuit championships. 澄清: 1.我之前說我們現在是更好的選手的言論，並不是因為跟比較不好的選手練習，而是基於我們現在有更多的動力練習以獲得更多的機會，這是有很大的差別! 2.我並不是說DH或IEM等等比賽比之前困難，我只是拿它跟WCS大賽比而已。 __________________________________ 常威今年幾乎可以說是非韓第1T了，祝他闖進年終賽，跟韓國選手比看看到底差距在哪。這一篇翻的比較快，如果這篇有哪裡翻的不好的，還請多多包涵，並請告訴我讓我有修改的機會，謝謝。 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 180.204.195.243 ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/StarCraft/M.1472561991.A.E98.html

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w54614

08/30 21:47, , 1^F

08/30 21:47, 1^F

他說是在上海時在配合PROLEAGUE 我覺得他是在說韓服

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ace0824

08/30 21:58, , 2^F

08/30 21:58, 2^F

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Pony5566

08/30 22:06, , 3^F