「地方召會」被列入ECNR『新宗教與非正統教派』

看板Christianity作者 (guesswho)時間10年前 (2013/10/24 22:11), 編輯推噓16(160185)
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「地方召會」被列入ECNR『新宗教與非正統教派』百科全書之理由 福音派基督徒之所以將「地方召會」列入ECNR『新宗教與非正統教派』百科全書,其理由 認為李氏下列幾點之教訓與正統基督徒信仰出現矛盾之處。特別是在教義上「神性的本質 」、「人性的本質」兩大部份。筆者補譯幾個重點供弟兄姊妹參考,好讓大家有重新思考 的空間。 On the Nature of God 神的本質 "The Son is called the Father; so the Son must be the Father. We must realize this fact. There are some who say that He is called the Father, but He is not really the Father. But how could He be called the Father and yet not be the Father?... In the place where no man can approach Him (I Tim. 6:16), God is the Father. When He comes forth to manifest Himself, He is the Son. So, a Son is given, yet His name is called 'The everlasting Father.' This very Son who has been given to us is the very Father." "子被稱為父,那麼子必然是父......" 出處:包羅萬有基督之靈。第四、五頁 Witness Lee, The All-Inclusive Spirit of Christ (Los Angeles: The Stream Publishers, 1969), pp. 4-5 "...the entire Godhead, the Triune God, became flesh." .....整個神格,是三一神,成為肉身......... 出處:神的新約經綸。第230頁 Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1986), p. 230 "The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism. When the Spirit of God is joined with us, God is not left behind, nor does Christ remain on the throne. This is the impression Christianity gives. They think of the Father as one Person, sending the Son, another Person, to accomplish redemption, after which the Son sends the Spirit, yet another Person. The Spirit, in traditional thinking, comes into the believers, while the Father and Son are left on the throne. When believers pray, they are taught to bow before the Father and pray in the name of the Son. To split the Godhead into these separate Persons is not the revelation of the Bible...." ..............把神格分為三個位格不是聖經的啟示...... 出處:生命讀經。第164頁 Witness Lee, Life Messages (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1979), p. 164 "THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS ALSO THE SPIRIT.... and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father. Hallelujah!" ..."子是那父,子也是那靈"........我們的主是那子,也是那父....... 出處:關於三一神。第18-19頁 Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1973), pp. 18-19 "Therefore, it is clear: The Lord Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and He is the very God. He is also the Lord. He is the Father, the Son, the Spirit, the Mighty God, and the Lord." ........主耶穌是父,是子,是那靈........ 出處:關於三一神的屬靈啟示。 Witness Lee, The Clear Scriptural Revelation Concerning the Triune God www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/triune.html "The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person." ....父,子,靈不是三個身位或三位神,....他們是一個身位...... 出處:三一神活在人裡。第48頁 Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1970), p. 48 On the Nature of Humanity 人性的本質 "Christ is of two natures, the human and the divine, and we are the same: we are of the human nature, but covered with the divine. He is the God-man, and we are the God-men. He is the ark made of wood covered with gold, and we are the boards made of wood covered with gold. In number we are different, but in nature we are exactly the same." ....基督有人性和神性.....在本質上我們也是一樣....... 出處:包羅萬有基督。第103頁 Witness Lee, The All-Inclusive Christ (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 5th ed. 1989), p. 103 "God can say to His believers, 'I am divine and human,' and His believers can reply, 'Praise You, Lord. You are divine and human, and we are human and divine.'" 神可對信徒說"我是神也是人".....信徒可回答 "我們是人也是神"..... 出處:三一神活在人裡。第51-52頁 Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1990), pp. 51-52 "My burden is to show you clearly that God's economy and plan is to make Himself man and to make us, His created beings, 'God,' so that He is 'man-ized' and we are 'God-ized.' In the end, He and we, we and He, all become God-men.' ".....神的經綸和計劃是把祂自己做成人,把我們做成祂造的"神"...... 出處:神聖分賜的更深研究。第54頁 Witness Lee, A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1990), p. 54 "We the believers are begotten of God. What is begotten of man is man, and what is begotten of God must be God. We are born of God; hence, in this sense, we are God." ........我們 從神生,因此,在此理解,我們是神. 出處:Ibid., p. 53 Ibid., p. 53 "Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God.' These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. The Three of the Divine Trinity cannot be confused or separated, and the four-in-one also cannot be separated or confused." ........父、子、靈 都在基督的身體,我們可以說三一神現是四一神,父、子、靈和身 體。 出處:Ibid., pp. 203-204 Ibid., pp. 203-204 On the Legitimacy of Evangelical Churches and Denominations 基督教福音教會和各宗派的正統性 We decry as inconsistent and unjustifiable the attempts by Living Stream and the "local churches" to gain membership in associations of evangelical churches and ministries while continuing to promote Witness Lee's denigrating characterizations of such churches and ministries as follows: 「地方召會」及「水流職事站」在取得基督教福音教會所屬的協會會員資格,卻同時繼續 推展李氏教導貶低這些基督教福音教會和事奉,我們認為此種做法是矛盾和不公義的。 "The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished." .....主不是在基督教國建立召會,基督教國是由墮落羅馬天主教,和改革各宗派 ..... 出處:新約恢復本99頁 Witness Lee in The New Testament Recovery Version, note 184 (Matthew 16:18) (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1991), p. 99 http://online.recoveryversion.org/FootNotes.asp?FNtsID=639 "The apostate church has deviated from the Lord's word and become heretical. The reformed church, though recovered to the Lord's word to some extent, has denied the Lord's name by denominating herself, taking many other names, such as Lutherans, Wesleyan, Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. ... To deviate from the Lord's word is apostasy, and to denominate the church by taking any name other than the Lord's is spiritual fornication." ......使用宗派否認主的名如信義會、衛思理會、長老會、浸信會....... 出處:新約恢復本1256頁 Witness Lee in The New Testament Recovery Version, note 83 (Revelation 3:8) (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1991), p. 1256 http://online.recoveryversion.org/FootNotes.asp?FNtsID=8759 "I am afraid that a number of us are still under the negative influence of Christendom. We all have to realize that today the Lord is going on and on to fully recover us and bring us fully out of Christendom." ".....今天主要完成恢復我們帶我們完全離開基督教國 ........ 出處: 教會歷史與地方召會。132頁 Witness Lee, The History of the Church and the Local Churches (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1991), p. 132 "In every denomination, including the Roman Catholic Church, there are real, saved Christians. They are God's people belonging to the Lord. But the organization of the denominations in which they are is not of God. The denominational organizations have been utilized by Satan to set up his satanic system to destroy God's economy of the proper church life." ..........基督教宗派組織是被撒旦利用建立撒旦系統破壞神的經綸........ 出處:創世紀生命讀經464頁 Witness Lee, "Message Thirty-Four" in The Life-Study of Genesis (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1987), Vol. 1, p. 464 "We do not care for Christianity, we do not care for Christendom, we do not care for the Roman Catholic church, and we do not care for all the denominations, because in the Bible it says that the great Babylon is fallen. This is a declaration. Christianity is fallen, Christendom is fallen, Catholicism is fallen, and all the denominations are fallen. Hallelujah!" ...........這是個宣告基督教墮落...所有基督教宗派是墮落 ..... 出處: 地方召會的七靈97頁 Witness Lee, The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches (Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1989), p. 97 "To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches." .......我們將會了解現今是地方召會的日子. 出處:Ibid., p. 23 Ibid., p. 23 We respectfully call on the leadership of Living Stream Ministry and the "local churches" to disavow and cease to publish these and similar declarations. 我們尊敬的呼籲「地方召會」及「水流職事站」領導,收回和停止出版這些和類似的教導 。 http://blog.haleluya.com.tw/wataru/archives/6852.html -- 『誰敬畏耶和華,耶和華必指示他當選擇的道路。』 詩篇25:12 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 61.231.172.141 Tiunn:轉錄至看板 JesusLove 10/24 22:12

10/24 23:15, , 1F
你所列的這些點,在版上都討論過了。
10/24 23:15, 1F

10/24 23:40, , 2F
結論就是李常受異端。
10/24 23:40, 2F

10/25 07:04, , 3F
一個附和中國政府打壓宗教自由,
10/25 07:04, 3F

10/25 07:05, , 4F
要求別人承認自己是呼喊派的人,
10/25 07:05, 4F

10/25 07:05, , 5F
有何資格指責別人是異端?
10/25 07:05, 5F

10/25 07:37, , 6F
你只會剩下這些口水嗎?可憐。
10/25 07:37, 6F

10/25 09:07, , 7F
如果宣稱算是討論過的話,應該算有吧。
10/25 09:07, 7F

10/25 10:59, , 8F
咦?這不是我幾年前寫的網誌嗎?怎麼被挖出來了?@@
10/25 10:59, 8F

10/25 11:29, , 9F
尊重作者,應該要註明文章出處.
10/25 11:29, 9F

10/25 11:33, , 10F
啊~出處在最後一行
10/25 11:33, 10F

10/25 12:07, , 11F
openeyes222,口水是你先開始的。
10/25 12:07, 11F

10/25 12:09, , 12F
唉 有些人就是不懂一個巴掌打不響阿
10/25 12:09, 12F

10/25 12:09, , 13F
還要人承認自己是呼喊派。拒絕從嚴、坦白從寬嗎?
10/25 12:09, 13F

10/25 12:10, , 14F
只是聲音大了點是嗎
10/25 12:10, 14F

10/25 12:20, , 15F
這樣真的是很對不起那些被中國政府冠上呼喊派之名
10/25 12:20, 15F

10/25 12:20, , 16F
保皇黨只會拿那篇"我們錯了"出來自爽。
10/25 12:20, 16F

10/25 12:21, , 17F
而下獄的聖徒。
10/25 12:21, 17F

10/25 12:56, , 18F
你一直拿呼喊派跳針,跳很大,別搞笑了。
10/25 12:56, 18F

10/25 16:23, , 19F
最跳針的是樓主。所以究竟在這件事上有沒有新內容?
10/25 16:23, 19F

10/25 16:31, , 20F
沒有XD
10/25 16:31, 20F

10/25 18:12, , 21F
openeyes222,這些都解釋過了,你還硬要說是異端,
10/25 18:12, 21F

10/25 18:13, , 22F
很難讓人不質你背後的動機。
10/25 18:13, 22F

10/25 18:13, , 23F
很難讓人不質疑你背後的動機。
10/25 18:13, 23F

10/25 18:28, , 24F
依你的程度能解釋個屁。
10/25 18:28, 24F

10/25 18:42, , 25F
好久以前的事了....冷飯熱炒???
10/25 18:42, 25F

10/25 19:29, , 26F
拜託收精華後禁止無新內容的討論吧...
10/25 19:29, 26F

10/25 20:28, , 27F
不管時間多久,重點是會所現在的信仰是什麼。
10/25 20:28, 27F

10/25 20:28, , 28F
裡面說的在『我們錯了』裡基督教研究院都幫我們一一反駁了
10/25 20:28, 28F

10/25 20:29, , 29F
你又不看也不聽解釋,當然一直認為召會到處傳播異端
10/25 20:29, 29F

10/25 20:30, , 30F
會所官方要去李化了嗎?要棄絕那些異端思想了嗎?
10/25 20:30, 30F

10/25 20:31, , 31F
基督教研究院院長可不認為李的神學是異端,我們也不認為
10/25 20:31, 31F

10/25 20:32, , 32F
就說你只會提那篇,事實上還是信仰李常受異端。
10/25 20:32, 32F

10/25 20:32, , 33F
你說那是異端是因為你只看你想看的,又不聽反面的文章
10/25 20:32, 33F

10/25 20:33, , 34F
你連那篇都沒看過了,憑什麼批評呢??你的文章我可是大多都有
10/25 20:33, 34F

10/25 20:34, , 35F
讀過,只能說你只看一些斷章取義的文章就下定論了
10/25 20:34, 35F

10/25 20:35, , 36F
真的要讓人信服,就先把『我們錯了』讀過吧
10/25 20:35, 36F

10/25 20:36, , 37F
你相信耶穌是被造之物就是異端,邏輯互斥是說不通的。
10/25 20:36, 37F

10/25 20:42, , 38F
耶穌基督的神性是非受造的,但肉身是否受造我則是兩者都接受
10/25 20:42, 38F

10/25 20:43, , 39F
基督的肉身會長大、會老、會死,說其肉身是聖靈所造我能接受
10/25 20:43, 39F
還有 122 則推文
10/26 10:52, , 162F
靈。
10/26 10:52, 162F

10/26 10:57, , 163F
使徒約翰批異端敵基督也是受傷嗎?別只會亂吐口水。
10/26 10:57, 163F

10/26 11:00, , 164F
倪李二人皆指子是被造之物,明顯切割耶穌成二個位格。
10/26 11:00, 164F

10/26 11:01, , 165F
孑是受造之物又是造物者無法共存。
10/26 11:01, 165F

10/26 11:03, , 166F
孑位格永遠都沒有任何被造。
10/26 11:03, 166F

10/26 11:05, , 167F
子位格起初就有被造嗎?李常受的子化論就是異端。
10/26 11:05, 167F

10/26 15:05, , 168F
在經綸一面,是子被釘死;
10/26 15:05, 168F

10/26 15:05, , 169F
在素質一面,子就是父,子也是靈。
10/26 15:05, 169F

10/26 15:06, , 170F
你又在用某一面的真理來否定另一面的真理。
10/26 15:06, 170F

10/26 15:06, , 171F
三神論是異端無誤。
10/26 15:06, 171F

10/26 15:07, , 172F
你的論點是掛羊頭賣狗肉。
10/26 15:07, 172F

10/26 15:07, , 173F
表面上承認一神論,骨子裡卻是三神論。
10/26 15:07, 173F

10/26 15:08, , 174F
基督是受造的也說過N遍了。
10/26 15:08, 174F

10/26 15:08, , 175F
基督的人性是受造的、神性並不是。
10/26 15:08, 175F

10/26 15:09, , 176F
講到基督的受造,必須跳脫時間順序的迷思。
10/26 15:09, 176F

10/26 15:10, , 177F
基督在成為肉體時成為受造的,所以是受造之物。
10/26 15:10, 177F

10/26 15:15, , 178F
既然有基督是受造之物的事實,
10/26 15:15, 178F

10/26 15:16, , 179F
神就看基督從創世以來就是受造的。
10/26 15:16, 179F

10/26 15:17, , 180F
舊約中神的選民藉著基督釘十字架完成的救恩而得救,
10/26 15:17, 180F

10/26 15:17, , 181F
也是同樣的道理。
10/26 15:17, 181F

10/26 15:18, , 182F
以後可以不要再問同樣的問題了嗎?
10/26 15:18, 182F

10/26 15:25, , 183F
你一直回應這些人 他們以後就一定不會再問嗎?
10/26 15:25, 183F

10/26 15:25, , 184F
想想看"一個巴掌打不響"這句話
10/26 15:25, 184F

10/26 15:54, , 185F
你根本顧左右而言他。
10/26 15:54, 185F

10/26 15:56, , 186F
道成肉身是父子靈,而釘十字架卻是子。
10/26 15:56, 186F

10/26 15:59, , 187F
子是從創世就是受造,這你也能掰的出來。
10/26 15:59, 187F

10/26 20:07, , 188F
聖經的啟示是多面的,你無法接受某些方面是你的問題
10/26 20:07, 188F

10/26 20:22, , 189F
大衛的子孫怎麼會是大衛的主?
10/26 20:22, 189F

10/26 20:23, , 190F
兒孫騎到老子頭上,那還得了?根本就是異端。
10/26 20:23, 190F

10/26 20:24, , 191F
這種言論就是你的風格。
10/26 20:24, 191F

10/27 17:25, , 192F
唉爭了也沒用,聖經的教導本來就要我們不要去跟別人辯
10/27 17:25, 192F

10/27 17:26, , 193F
論,辯了也沒用,反正異端也不會接受不是嗎?我絕對沒
10/27 17:26, 193F

10/27 17:26, , 194F
有說李是異端喔~你愛信不信 你的決定 乖喔~
10/27 17:26, 194F

10/27 17:33, , 195F
反正會上來辯的這些人也不是什麼得勝者 讓他們去吧
10/27 17:33, 195F

10/27 18:51, , 196F
講得一付自己很得勝的樣子。
10/27 18:51, 196F

10/27 18:58, , 197F
痾 我也沒說自己很得勝耶 我只知道給人生命的基督徒
10/27 18:58, 197F

10/27 18:58, , 198F
絕對不會像你這樣
10/27 18:58, 198F

10/27 18:58, , 199F
講得Yee付自己很得勝的樣子
10/27 18:58, 199F


12/02 15:55, , 201F
若基督在人性一面不是受造之物 要怎麼解釋歌羅西書1:15
12/02 15:55, 201F
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文章代碼(AID): #1IQIggZ4 (Christianity)