[紅襪] SIGNING SHANE VICTORINO A MISTAKE

看板RedSox作者 (sadnessflower)時間11年前 (2012/12/06 21:42), 編輯推噓35(35056)
留言91則, 20人參與, 最新討論串1/1
http://tinyurl.com/cw38non SIGNING SHANE VICTORINO A MISTAKE FOR RED SOX by KIRK MINIHANE Just because we live in a world where Shane Victorino can make $39 million over three years doesn't mean it's OK to pay Shane Victorino $39 million over three years. Victorino拿的到39M/3yrs的約 不等於紅襪該跟他簽這個約 Maybe there is a long-term plan -- maybe this paves the way for trading Jacoby Ellsbury for legitimate starting pitching (which, let us not forget, is all that really matters) -- but as an individual baseball decision the addition of Victorino at that price is a mistake, plain and simple. 或許這為紅襪開啟了交易Ellsbury換SP的機會 但單就棒球觀點 這筆約是個錯誤 Of the 144 major league players with enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title last season, Victorino ranked 116th in OPS and 121st in slugging (that would be one spot ahead of Mike Aviles). I know we have been told not to care about batting average anymore, but for those of you dinosaurs who pay attention to that charming but antiquated statistic should note that Victorino hit a career-worst .255 in 2012, 20 points below his career average. 上季在打席數足夠的球員裡 Victorino的OPS僅排名116 SLG排名121(Aviles的前一名) 或許AVG不再是唯一重要的數據 但上一季他只打出生涯最差的.255 比生涯平均低了百分之2(生涯.275) So for the second time in as many days it appears Ben Cherington -- with many if not most of the local media only too happy to help with positive spin -- has overpaid for a player coming off of a lousy season. Isn't it supposed to be the other way? Understanding there has been shifts and guys almost always get paid more than they should, it still strikes me that Victorino should come closer to a buy-low candidate than an clear and obvious overpay. 對我而言 Victorino應該是個逢低買進的標的 而不是overpay的對象 And it really shouldn't matter that the Cleveland Indians had already offered Victorino $44 million over four years, as has been reported. Not a factor. If that's an actual option for Victorino, you let him go to Cleveland and find someone else. 就算笑臉人真的開了44M/4yrs的約 也不能改變39M/3yrs是overpay的 應該讓Victorino去CLE I get the Napoli signing, I really do. I think it's too much money for a player who has played 113 and 108 games the last two seasons (still would like to know why Texas -- we all agree a pretty solid baseball organization, right? -- declined on the $13.3 qualifying offer to Napoli while the Sox were happy to triple it in both years and money) and is coming off of a 2012 line of .227/.343/.812, but I recognize the upside. 我認同該簽Napoli 不過太貴了 前兩季他只分別出賽了113跟108場 TEX會連13.3M的qualifying offer都不給 不是沒有原因的 而我們在他低潮年後 給了他三倍的合約(雖然我也可以理解是出於他的upside) Victorino is a platoon player. This is not written to be hyperbolic, to get a rise, it is a statistical reality. And you'd think for $13 million a year you would at least get a platoon player who excels against right-handed pitching. That's not Victorino. Victorino只是個platoon球員 這不是誇張的說法 就算要給一個platoon球員一年13M 也該給個擅長打右投的(面對右投手的機會較多) In 2012 Victorino had a .229/.296./.333 line against righties. Now, to be fair, that came in the worst season of his major league career (it's true -- Victorino landed a $39 million deal after posting the worst OBP, slugging and batting average of his career, and we aren't exactly dealing with past numbers that will be confused with Miguel Cabrera's). So let's go just a year back to 2011. Victorino had a fine season, finishing with a slugging percentage of .491 and an OPS of .847. Guess what? He was still just a little better than average against righties -- slugged .455 with an OPS of .787 -- but destroyed lefties, an OPS of 1.032. 上個球季Victorino打右投只有.229/.296./.333 就算考慮到這三項數據都是他的生涯最低 有機會反彈 他表現很好的11年打右投也只有略高於平均的.787 OPS(打左投則是1.032) For his career Victorino has 2.979 plate appearances against right-handed pitching as a left-handed batter and his OPS is .732. In his last three seasons -- which, again, includes 2011, maybe the best of his career -- he has a .387 slugging percentage in 1,231 at-bats as a left-handed hitter (for some frame of reference, Darnell McDonald has a career .394 slugging percentage.) Victorino's struggles as a left-handed hitter were so profound last season that at the end of the year the switch-hitter began to hit right-handed against right-handed pitching. To some that might be a red flag, for the Red Sox it's evidently still another reason to go above market value. Victorino生涯2979個PA裡 用左打面對右投只有.732的OPS 過去三個球季 用左打面對右投也只有.387的SLG 麥當勞的.394都比他高 也導致他在上賽季的最後 被迫用右打來面對右投手 這對紅襪來說應該是一個警訊 And those other moves may happen this week. At some point Cherington will have to get around to finding some reliable starting pitching. And I'm not talking 38-year-old R.A. Dickey for the two best prospects in the organization, but someone who fits in the middle of the rotation and is under some club control contractually. Not an easy find, but an essential one. We can talk all day about chicken and beer and Bobby Valentine and chemistry and how much John Henry enables the players and all that stuff, but the Red Sox were the best team in baseball in August 2011 and have been 30 games below .500 since because of the starting pitching. If Cherington doesn't solve that, Napoli and Victorino are meaningless. 這禮拜可能還會有些動作 Cherington必須找幾個可靠的SP 我不會拿兩個最好的新秀去換38歲的Dickey 但可以便宜用幾年的中段輪值倒是可考慮 8BV、啤酒炸雞都是原因,但紅襪從11年8月前全聯盟最好的球隊變成低於五成30場, SP的無力絕對是最主要的問題 不解決這點 簽了Napoli跟Victorino也一樣 It's very early, but the returns on the Era of Discipline have been David Ross, David Ortiz, Mike Napoli and Shane Victorino for about 110 million bucks. Not a disaster, but is anyone really overwhelmed by that haul? 回到重視紀律的年代後 簽下David Ross、老爹、拿胖、Victorino不是不好, 但這些人還不足以撥亂反正 And Victorino is easily the worst of the four deals. American League batters had a .731 OPS last season. Victorino has a career .732 OPS against right-handed pitching. For roughly three-quarters of his at-bats Victorino is by definition an average hitter. And for that he will be paid $13 million for each of the next three seasons. 而Victorino的約是上面四筆裡面最糟的 生涯對右投只有.732的OPS 換言之 四分之三的打席他都只是個平均水準的打者 而他接下來三個球季都要領走13M That may not qualify as undisciplined, but it's the worst move Ben Cherington has made in his tenure as general manager of the Red Sox. 這可能是Cherington接手後最糟的一個動作 --- 這篇是WEEI另一個專欄作者寫的 可以跟前一篇對照正反觀點 大家討論看看~ -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 111.243.90.186 ※ 編輯: seekforever 來自: 111.243.90.186 (12/06 21:43)

12/06 21:52, , 1F
其實當初簽夏威夷人讓人挺傻眼的
12/06 21:52, 1F

12/06 22:01, , 2F
希望能反彈阿~~~ 不要成為尻佛第二就好了
12/06 22:01, 2F

12/06 22:05, , 3F
尻佛那可是又臭又長 很難比 XD
12/06 22:05, 3F

12/06 22:07, , 4F
其實Ellsbury生涯打左投也才.762 當然右投手比較多
12/06 22:07, 4F

12/06 22:07, , 5F
生涯OPS+ Ells 106 夏威夷人102
12/06 22:07, 5F

12/06 22:08, , 6F
Ellsbury FA之後可能拿到6-7年 總額100M以上
12/06 22:08, 6F

12/06 22:09, , 7F
當然FA的年紀不同 不過個人不覺得這筆有嚴重overpay
12/06 22:09, 7F

12/06 22:16, , 8F
其實沒那麼嚴重 因為這筆約也不長 其實要造成傷害的話
12/06 22:16, 8F

12/06 22:16, , 9F
也很有限
12/06 22:16, 9F

12/06 22:21, , 10F
市場上已經沒有CP值更高的選擇了 看看BJ Upton的約
12/06 22:21, 10F

12/06 22:21, , 11F
Swisher也不可能用三年約簽到
12/06 22:21, 11F

12/06 22:22, , 12F
燒哥當然也不可能
12/06 22:22, 12F

12/06 22:28, , 13F
三年就算再不好 也勉強可以接受 檯面上也沒好貨
12/06 22:28, 13F

12/06 22:53, , 14F
夏威夷人現在還看不太出來,不過拿波里這投資不差
12/06 22:53, 14F

12/06 22:54, , 15F
不過今年OF好像也不多,沒什麼選擇的樣子(大家都搶很兇)
12/06 22:54, 15F

12/06 22:57, , 16F
我覺得這篇根本是在鬼扯...根本沒那麼多人給你選
12/06 22:57, 16F

12/06 22:57, , 17F
我也覺得簽這筆有點意外 但沒他說的那麼不堪
12/06 22:57, 17F

12/06 22:58, , 18F
就沒人能簽啊......難道要簽Bourn嗎 這個一定更貴
12/06 22:58, 18F

12/06 22:58, , 19F
更顆顆的是夾克筆 襪迷姑且不論 對於其他隊球迷而言 他只
12/06 22:58, 19F

12/06 22:59, , 20F
是個有一年爆發的腿哥 生涯平均109 但只有兩季過百
12/06 22:59, 20F

12/06 23:01, , 21F
拿掉11年 其實Ellsbury和那些腿哥沒差多少啊
12/06 23:01, 21F

12/06 23:01, , 22F
打擊可能稍微好一點啦 但是其實也只有好那麼一點
12/06 23:01, 22F

12/06 23:01, , 23F
其中一季爆發 另外一個根本小樣本 也就是說扣掉爆發
12/06 23:01, 23F

12/06 23:01, , 24F
他大概只是個90左右的 然後搞不好要跟你要15M+
12/06 23:01, 24F

12/06 23:02, , 25F
跳出襪迷的角度 以一個對他不熟的他隊球迷來說
12/06 23:02, 25F

12/06 23:04, , 26F
我還真的不知道他哪裡比Victorino好到可以拿比他多
12/06 23:04, 26F

12/06 23:05, , 27F
這篇的說法偏激過了頭
12/06 23:05, 27F

12/06 23:06, , 28F
Victorino的約我也覺得簽得不漂亮,但還不至於到爛約
12/06 23:06, 28F

12/06 23:07, , 29F
他沒有那麼差,正常發揮下也不會只是個一般等級球員
12/06 23:07, 29F

12/06 23:07, , 30F
講白了 簽Victor就是拿一個簽比較短不會卡錢的夾克筆來用
12/06 23:07, 30F

12/06 23:07, , 31F
這個move本身可以理解 價錢的話當然是overpay
12/06 23:07, 31F

12/06 23:08, , 32F
不過現在FA不overpay能簽得到嗎? Pagan的那個約我們
12/06 23:08, 32F

12/06 23:08, , 33F
拿今年被討論的很夯的WAR來講好了,近三年3.8 5.9 3.3
12/06 23:08, 33F

12/06 23:08, , 34F
也簽不到 在市場上能守CF的人中也沒幾個了
12/06 23:08, 34F

12/06 23:09, , 35F
其實不管怎麼看,他是個還不差但還不到All Star等級
12/06 23:09, 35F

12/06 23:10, , 36F
這個約的問題只在於,該是逢低買進的,卻用正常水準約簽
12/06 23:10, 36F

12/06 23:10, , 37F
我怎麼有種只要是超過一年,每年超過10M的約,不管簽的是
12/06 23:10, 37F

12/06 23:10, , 38F
跟夾克筆差不多啦 簡單說就是這樣 人家也是爆過一年
12/06 23:10, 38F

12/06 23:11, , 39F
Napoli TEX沒簽的主因在於球隊建隊方向的問題
12/06 23:11, 39F

12/06 23:11, , 40F
誰~都會有人跳出來說「哈!這是爛約!」的錯覺~
12/06 23:11, 40F

12/06 23:11, , 41F
並不是代表他不值這個價,BOS是可以給他足夠打席的
12/06 23:11, 41F

12/06 23:12, , 42F
8年前這個價格能簽到吹哥 5年前再加碼一點就簽到Drew
12/06 23:12, 42F

12/06 23:12, , 43F
roverchi說的沒錯啊XD
12/06 23:12, 43F

12/06 23:13, , 44F
吹哥待我們家的時候一年也只拿8M
12/06 23:13, 44F

12/06 23:13, , 45F
只能說 因為現在綁大魚的風氣越來越盛 市場上越來越難
12/06 23:13, 45F

12/06 23:13, , 46F
看到大物 所以堪用的FA都會被喊很高
12/06 23:13, 46F

12/06 23:16, , 47F
如果最後替代小帥哥站CF 這個約到底爛到哪裡了@@?
12/06 23:16, 47F

12/06 23:16, , 48F
這是邏輯問題 如果現在紅襪是差臨門一腳 那這約不錯
12/06 23:16, 48F

12/06 23:17, , 49F
就是沒有很賺 各取所需啊 要說簽太貴也不至於吧
12/06 23:17, 49F

12/06 23:17, , 50F
但如果要重建 等於40M丟到水里 不多是沒錯 但總還是浪費
12/06 23:17, 50F

12/06 23:17, , 51F
當然別人有買比我們家便宜的 不過也不代表我們很盤子
12/06 23:17, 51F

12/06 23:18, , 52F
東浪費一點 西浪費一點 等真的要梭哈的時候沒籌碼就窘了
12/06 23:18, 52F

12/06 23:18, , 53F
我覺得 是不是差臨門一腳 這要看接下來的動作而定
12/06 23:18, 53F

12/06 23:18, , 54F
水裡? 有那麼不堪?
12/06 23:18, 54F

12/06 23:18, , 55F
其實我覺得根本只是拉不下臉來砍掉重練啦
12/06 23:18, 55F

12/06 23:19, , 56F
當然如果以砍掉重練的角度來看 Victorino根本沒必要
12/06 23:19, 56F

12/06 23:19, , 57F
預算許可的情況之下 多屯一點貨增加彈性 沒什麼問題
12/06 23:19, 57F

12/06 23:19, , 58F
就讓Ellsbury站一年看狀況 不值得留就放他走
12/06 23:19, 58F

12/06 23:19, , 59F
2014~15剛好讓JBJ上來
12/06 23:19, 59F

12/06 23:20, , 60F
現在payroll到底多少 沒人知道 Cherington說是機密
12/06 23:20, 60F

12/06 23:20, , 61F
如果如某些人說的上看豪華稅門檻(189M) 顯然沒要重建
12/06 23:20, 61F

12/06 23:21, , 62F
Youkilis 去基基了...............Sad....
12/06 23:21, 62F

12/06 23:21, , 63F
說真的 我願意看James Loney站1B Nava站LF Sweeney去RF
12/06 23:21, 63F

12/06 23:21, , 64F
確定了嗎?
12/06 23:21, 64F

12/06 23:22, , 65F
然後來個紅襪史上第一隻狀元 但老闆肯嗎XD 別的球迷肯嗎
12/06 23:22, 65F

12/06 23:22, , 66F
丟到水裡... 尻佛那約才是真正的丟到水裡吧
12/06 23:22, 66F

12/06 23:23, , 67F
那當然也不會如abc說的 要梭哈時沒籌碼
12/06 23:23, 67F

12/06 23:24, , 68F
從簽了Victorino後 還是繼續有傳言要補人
12/06 23:24, 68F

12/06 23:25, , 69F
市場交易就是這樣,紅襪是不可能全砍掉rebuild的
12/06 23:25, 69F

12/06 23:25, , 70F
看起來目前120M左右 距離預算上限 還有一段不小空間
12/06 23:25, 70F

12/06 23:25, , 71F
還要顧一下球迷,總要給球迷個進場的理由
12/06 23:25, 71F

12/06 23:26, , 72F
而且這個約的重要性在於他可以守CF,給了很高的靈活度
12/06 23:26, 72F

12/06 23:27, , 73F
明年是否要交易Ells就有空間了,算是可以理解的行為
12/06 23:27, 73F

12/06 23:28, , 74F
明年開打以後交易的意義就不大了吧@@"
12/06 23:28, 74F

12/06 23:29, , 75F
其實如果NYY用12M簽到Youk...我反而會覺得也無所謂
12/06 23:29, 75F

12/06 23:30, , 76F
他們1B和3B站的是誰?還是花12M買DH嗎?我不懂NYY追Youk
12/06 23:30, 76F

12/06 23:30, , 77F
有甚麼好理由.....
12/06 23:30, 77F

12/06 23:31, , 78F
1B鐵爺 3B屁股痛的A-Rod Chavez走了 勢必補個三壘
12/06 23:31, 78F

12/06 23:33, , 79F
阿不就 A-Rod 開季不能打 不過好像簽不到了 lol
12/06 23:33, 79F

12/06 23:35, , 80F
希望光頭不要去NYY 去笑臉人啦..
12/06 23:35, 80F

12/06 23:36, , 81F
當初他們會攔A-Rod也是因為原本的3B季後報銷~
12/06 23:36, 81F

12/06 23:38, , 82F
剛去NYY板才看到這個消息=.="....
12/06 23:38, 82F

12/06 23:39, , 83F
不過也同樣代表他們另外27.5M丟進水裡了...
12/06 23:39, 83F

12/06 23:43, , 84F
NYY追Youk哪需要什麼好理由 因為市場上也沒人可追了啊
12/06 23:43, 84F

12/06 23:44, , 85F
開瓶哥 Chavez都被簽走了 Drew不願意platoon三游
12/06 23:44, 85F

12/06 23:45, , 86F
abc有先看過襪版不需要在總版戰這麼大
12/06 23:45, 86F

12/07 05:58, , 87F
Victorino的約有點overpay,不過不算很大
12/07 05:58, 87F

12/07 09:54, , 88F
小帥哥感覺真的被高估了一些
12/07 09:54, 88F

12/07 11:48, , 89F
我覺得VIC差不多7.8百萬還OK 一千三有點超過
12/07 11:48, 89F

12/07 13:09, , 90F
Pagan 10M都算便宜了 近況差但名氣較響亮的Victorino
12/07 13:09, 90F

12/07 13:09, , 91F
要拿比這個價低很難
12/07 13:09, 91F
文章代碼(AID): #1GmA3S5B (RedSox)